Arne (my hero):
"There's something pathological in those that claim that a person who won a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with "V" (for going back under fire to save a fellow soldier's life), and three Purple Hearts, is some kind of coward, and then to claim that Dubya, who wasn't ready to shoot his ear out or go to Canada, is some kind of resolute "war president":"

"Schizophrenia interferes with a person's ability to think clearly, to distinguish reality from fantasy, to manage emotions, make decisions, and relate to others."

Actually I think it's merely crass partisanship leading to denial and rationalization - and in this case, smearing a genuine Anerican military hero. You decide what's crazier.

Funny picture though.

Posted by: shep at May 5, 2004 05:48 PM

I'm not smearing his military record with this one. It's his political record.

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 5, 2004 07:02 PM

They won't get it John. "punching your ticket" is way too subtle.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at May 5, 2004 07:19 PM

Wow, Rosemary - you are getting way more than your share of trolls!
Anyway, I will be in Detroit next week - fly in Monday, go home Friday, if you and Dean have a few minutes, I'd love to meet ya!

I'll be back again the first week of June.

Posted by: Beth Donovan at May 5, 2004 09:09 PM

I don't know that "won" is the correct term. His CO says he didn't earn it, and his crew says he stupidly fired a mortar into a rock and wounded himself.

At least one of his COs didn't sign a letter denouncing him. Of course, that one is dead and his son signed, but HE didn't.

Posted by: Geoffrey at May 5, 2004 09:14 PM

Geoffrey:

Silver Star? Bronze Star? The other two purple hearts?

Do you see a pattern here?

Posted by: Ara Rubyan at May 5, 2004 09:36 PM

No matter; it's clear (for the Bush apologists) that POTUS fought Kerry to a draw on Vietnam service.

Which is a win for Bush.

OK, so now Bush has to run on his record.

Hmmmm. Back to Vietnam!!

Posted by: Ara Rubyan at May 5, 2004 09:38 PM

Love the picture! Even if I can't stand Bush, there is something funny there. Original, no, but funny, yes.

This campaign is going to be incredibly boring. Two inept candidates along with Ralph Nadar thrown in for laughs. The jokes on us if Bush gets redefeated in November. At least the bloggers are keeping it entertaining. Hey! Wanna watch the Bush campaign spend $100 mil. attacking Kerry? Well, here it is. They are honestly going to spend more on negative ads, than on promoting their platform. This used to seem crazy to me until I realized THERE IS NO PLATFORM!!

Thanks Rosemary, I love you blog.

Posted by: Tim the Soldier at May 5, 2004 10:18 PM

Arne - take Adam's advice, calm down.

BTW, I keep missing the memos from the VRWC/RNC, could you forward them, since you seem to be up on all that.

I seem to have fallen off the mailing list.

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 5, 2004 10:39 PM

Ok - now that picture is just scary, Rosmarie.

In a the-clown-in-Stephen-Kings-"IT" sorta way, ya know?

Thanks for the nightmares **shudder**

Posted by: Lisa at May 5, 2004 11:15 PM

No Arne, you don't get it. Moral courage. Anathema.

Go back and read what I said. You are putting words in my mouth. Here is a hint...find any reference I made to Kerry being a "coward". Neither said nor implied.

Or take your meds. Till the voices settle down. There there now.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at May 5, 2004 11:32 PM

Arne - ya missed something. I'm a retired soldier. Do I need to send you my DD214?

Been there, done that - didn't notice the oil. Of course, I always zigged when I should have, or had a better flak vest. So the only blood I shed was on skinned knees and elbows (didn't have those cool pads they do now) hitting the dirt.

Well, bumped my nose once, ducking in the track. That was probably the most blood I ever shed in a single event.

Again with the Soviet-style "anyone who doesn't see the world as I do must be insane."

Give that particular theme a rest, wouldya? What, I don't have the medals Kerry does, I'm not entitled to an opinion?

I'm not in Iraq because I'm a %70 disabled veteran and not deployable - and won't get recalled for the same reason.

Started wearing a uniform in 1975, Arne. Took it off for the last time 23 December, 1999. Got my retired i.d. card (I took my accrued terminal leave - I hope that's okay with you) on 1 April 2000.

Called Branch and volunteered for recall 12 September, 2001.

I can document all but the last. I'd have to call branch and see if they still have the list for that.

Or are you just going to call me a liar?

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 5, 2004 11:44 PM

John, I neglected last time I commented with you to thank you for your service and patriotism. You must understand, however, as the thoughtful person that you are, that you need not put your credentials on display for your ideas to have credibility. You just have to completely reavaluate your politics, forget who and what you are, and consume great quantities of alcohal and antacid before we will ever agree on the election. I'm willing if you are. ;-)

Arne, shame on you. I usually agree with your views, if not your methods. You also seem, at times, well researched. All too many times however you overreach, thus undermining your entire argument for the sake of a poisoned barb. Unnecessary and self-inflicted sabotage of your own positions cannot be your intent, nevertheless it is often the ultimate result.

It doesn't take service or wounds as a prerequisite for having a valid opinion on this issue. That's not a requirement for voting either. A valid opinion only takes the will to use a brain with reasoning power. Voting doesn't even require that.

Arne, believe me that I of all the people who visit this blog empathize with your frustration. But if you are here to win hearts and minds, this tactic won't work. Before I touch the keyboard, I find it useful to take a breath (seriously it works) and as each sentence formulates in my brain, I try to ask myself if this will help or hurt my chances of changing someone's mind. If the words are just flying onto your monitor, you're typing with your heart and not your head.

Posted by: Mark Adams at May 6, 2004 12:21 AM

And could someone tell me just what the F#%$ is Nader doing in that picture? Sneaking up behing Kerry to stab him in the back maybe?

Posted by: Mark Adams at May 6, 2004 12:22 AM

John (Mr Argghh)

What!!?? Quiting military service after only 25 years and for a lousy little 7% disability. You slacker. You miserable chickenhawk. I'm sure glad that we have people commenting here that keep their eye out for cowardly, chickenhawk slackers such as yourself.

Hey, by the way, your's is the coolest name in the blogosphere, absolutely.

Posted by: jame m at May 6, 2004 12:26 AM

Hey, the person who made the graphic for me made the choices. It was actually back when there were many more candidates on the dem side.

Mark - you aren't going to change my mind, but hey, you can keep trying. I figured out already I'm not going to change yours!

Mark - the credentials weren't for your sake - they were for the fella with the short-term memory problem, as I'm sure you know.

Jame- thanks, that makes us a team of two on the name...

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 6, 2004 12:39 AM

I said take your meds Arne...there there now.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at May 6, 2004 12:45 AM

Sure, everybody starts commenting after I fall asleep!

I'm always missing the good stuff! Waaaaaaaaaaa!

Beth,

I can't wait to meet ya next week! First week in June, maybe then too. :-)

Mark,

You have to take a deep breath before commenting on my blog? That hurts man. :-)

Posted by: Rosemary the Queen of All Evil at May 6, 2004 02:53 AM

If you say so, Arne.

Not that you'll give me that much slack.

/irony

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 6, 2004 07:27 AM

Rose, I only take the breath when I know I'm pissed. Grace seems to come from your side of the family. Yes, one can be snarky and gentile at the same time, part of your irresistable charm. Somehow, you've never managed to piss me off. Shiver and cringe sure, but that may have nothing to do with politics. ;-)

I think I better just push the ignore button on Arne and his/her/its imaginary friend. First instincts are usually right.

Posted by: Mark Adams at May 6, 2004 08:25 AM

High-five to Mark.

Posted by: John Irving at May 6, 2004 09:01 AM

Mark,

Thanks. I've never pissed you off? Wow, that's a new experience for me. ;-)

Posted by: Rosemary the Queen of All Evil at May 6, 2004 09:46 AM

“I'm not smearing his military record with this one. It's his political record.”

I’m sorry, John, but I take that as another cowardly lie. In the context of your earlier comments, e.g., “I offer up several reasons for why he could have chosen to leave, one of them cowardice, or, more accurately, losing his nerve,” and “Traitor to his men, well, yeah, pretty close”, I have no choice but to conclude that you’re little “Sir Robin” parody is a direct shot at Kerry’s service.

Kerry’s war protests, and certainly his politics, are fair game, although your depiction of his politics, e.g., “He’d immediately pull out of Iraq, leaving the Iraqis at the hand of the terrorists,” is equally specious and therefore foul. But, with respect to Kerry’s valiant service under fire, you’re not fit to clean Kerry’s skivvies much less comment on that service. I missed your Bronze Star, Silver Star and Purple Heart citations in your depiction of your service record – is your slander of Kerry really about jealousy over your own much longer, much less illustrious career (I guess you don’t catch much flak with your nose in the dirt)?

You supposedly pro-military types went absolutely ape-sh*t over a few stupid comments about paid mercenaries and you think this ugly partisan smear of Kerry military service is somehow better? If you have any shame, now would be a perfect time to make use of it.

BTW, John, the reason no one is disputing your crap on your own site is because you told them that you weren’t interested: “If you’re a lefty troll, move on, please. Rosemary has more courage in her convictions than you do. As it turns out, I’m quite interested in “guns and things military,” but one look at your treatment of a decorated brother in arms makes it clear that you give those things a bad name.

Posted by: shep at May 6, 2004 11:59 AM

Shep - Thanks. I can save the bandwidth for someone else.

Interesting that you assume yourself a troll. I don't recall having asserted that. I did regarding Arne, but he claims innocence, so fine, Arne isn't a troll. Only Rosemary and Arne know for sure, and Rosemary only if Arne doesn't have a dynamic IP. So I'll take Arne's claim at face value.

Most of the comments along these threads weren't troll-like. I don't mind those. I just don't want the kind of comment threads that end up at Misha's, or DU, etc. I dunno about Free Republic - I don't read it. My broad-spectrum politics might surprise some around here.

But geez Shep, you've caught me out. I'm just a pissed-off wannabe, jealous of Kerry's medals, whose own pathetic career is overshadowed by Kerry's two years.

I didn't realize.

I'm so humbled by your persipcacity.

I'll go shut down my blog now.

I'm so ashamed.

This may come as a shock - but 95% of the people in combat come out of combat with "I been there ribbons/medals" and no medals for heroism. Not because they weren't heroic (I don't claim to have been, it was never needful as an artillery officer)but because they weren't stand-out heroic in front of witnesses. Your comments display a yawning gulf of ignorance regarding things military and combat there's no point in trying to bridge it.

There are no medals for heroism in my resume'. I've never claimed there to be. Nor were there in my grandfather's WWI record. My father is the hero in the family. I was fortunate enough to serve at a time when our military overmatch was such that heroism in that mold simply wasn't often needed. But no you tell me that unless I have medals for heroism, not only is my service suspect and pathetic, I am not entitled to an opinion on service. Yet you seem to have a pretty well developed opinion on mine.

I did offer several reasons he could have left. I didn't claim to know which ones. In my estimation, that didn't matter. The fact that he left in the fashion he did was enough for me. Obviously your mileage varies.

As for the immediately pull out of Iraq comment, you actually do have me there. That post is one I reuse with a little editing. At the time I posted it, it was a hyperbolic casting of what he was saying. He has since modified that position (I'm not allowed to say he flipped it, I haven't gotten my RNC memo this week - Arne already called me on that). So, I'll modify the post when I put it up next week.

As for my nose in the dirt - you're a smaller target, you can return fire more accurately, and demonstrably, you get wounded less often. So now, anyone who doesn't advance into combat, gun blazing from the hip, isn't fit to judge?

The cemeteries are full of those kinds of combat soldiers, Shep.

There is a greater component to a military career than just the medals, Shep. They are, indeed, important. Especially the big ones. But I know Silver Star winners who didn't make it any farther than I did.

As for the rest of your slander - I'll think of you as I'm spending the $1100 dollars a month your taxes provide me for coping with my service-connected disabilities. Kerry is paying a political price for how he's chosen to portray himself, in what is shaping up to be an ugly election. And yeah, I'm a part of that.

But I wake up tired and sore and stiff everyday, Shep. I do physical therapy every couple of months to maintain the use of my left arm (and I'm left handed) I can't run, I can't walk up mountains like I used to, I can't play racquetball, I take a bewildering number of pills - and not for ailments from aging, but for ailments that stem from my service.

So pardon me if I'm just not impressed with your analysis of my career.

You're still welcome to come look at the guns.

Suggestion - rather than scan the blog - go to the archives and read from there. You can skip the politics that way.

Oh, and one other modification I need to make - it should also say righty trolls. Because the only people I've banned from my site are right-wing nutjobs.

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 6, 2004 01:01 PM

Of course, I just realized, based on Arne's analysis, I have to go ban myself! 8^)

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at May 6, 2004 02:15 PM

John,

You are still my hero! With regards to Arne -- one is real and one or more are trolls. The real Arne tends to be long winded in responses. Also, while Arne can be highly annoying, the snark from the real Arne is not as nasty as the trollish faker. The fake is using a proxy...

Posted by: Rosemary the Queen of All Evil at May 6, 2004 03:53 PM

"But no you tell me that unless I have medals for heroism, not only is my service suspect and pathetic, I am not entitled to an opinion on service. Yet you seem to have a pretty well developed opinion on mine."

I'm glad you got my point, John. Doesn't get much lower than to have your service slandered by someone who doesn’t know jack about you and what you went through. My point is simple: you don’t know enough about what really happened, even less of Kerry’s motives, to promote an opinion so slanderous of his service and so at odds with the unbiased evidence. And I’m pretty sure that none of this carping from the right would be happening if Kerry were a Republican. In fact, this dirt started swirling only after Kerry became the presumptive Democratic nominee and only from sources with pretty obvious Republican-biased agendas.

I don’t know anything at all about your service, except what you’ve told me. And even though I find your partisan smear of Kerry reprehensible, my instinct is to say, “thank you”. Unless I knew for sure that you had sullied that service, I would never presume to slander it.

BTW, I don’t own a blog so, as I understand the definition, that makes me a troll. I’ll take a closer look at yours.

Posted by: shep at May 6, 2004 04:02 PM

Shep,

A troll is someone that doesn't want or even try to add to a debate or take part in a discussion. They usually attack commenters or the host without provocation. They basically have nothing meaninful to say.

You are not a troll. Wrong much of the time, but not troll. :-)

Posted by: Rosemary the Queen of All Evil at May 6, 2004 04:29 PM

Longwinded Arne,

Why is it that when I enter a comment you believe is intended for the "faux" Arne, you respond?

How about you just go ahead and assume it was intended for the other one, and let it go?

Then we won't have to play the stupid game.

Posted by: Dave in Texas at May 6, 2004 08:59 PM