I made the mistake of being persistant and actually saw the video of the cowardly act. Words cannot describe the anger I feel right now.

So I guess this all justifies the torture our military has been inflicting.
Let's see, militant fundamentalist with no real true heriarchial structure and code of ethics - I expect this kind of sadistic shit from. The United States Armed Forces who claim to be about spreading freedom and high ethical ideals throughout the world, I do not expect this kind of thing from. What they did is no different or no better than what the militants did.
And for you to finally make a mention of torture in the context that it is "acceptable" in light of this execution, turns my stomach.

Nope. It doesn't.

Nor did I ever say that.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Where did I finally make mention of torture in this context? Assuming you mean me, and not Rosemary.

You haven't read my blog on this issue.

I have condemned the actions of the soldiers in Abu Ghraib.

I, however, can see a difference between the two acts. You cannot?

The US Armed Forces are investigating, and prosecuting.

Who, in the Arab world, is going after these assholes? What Imams are calling for the ouster of anyone?

While there were soldiers who were apparently proud of what they did - they still expressed that pride stealthily, amongst themselves - because deep inside they knew they were going over the line.

By contrast, the assholes who killed Berg boast of it to the world. Are proud of it.

The soldiers who have been brought before the public eye are recoiling in shame, or are defiant in saying they were misled. But how many have boasted of how proud they are of it - now that they have moved from primary to secondary deviancy?

As I said on my blog - the difference is in how it is dealt with - before we get into the difference between shame, humiliation and other abuse on one side and brutal butchery on the other.

Equivalent, you say. Really.

We are going to go through the public trials. We are putting our leadership through embarrassing and even humiliating gyrations over this, and the fallout isn't over. And a President may well fall over it - at the ballot box. On the other side? Backslaps and promotions.

You, in your simple-minded calculus, think the two things are equal.

How droll.

And how bigoted - that you think so little of the Arabs that you find the behavior unremarkable - and what loathing you have for your own culture, that you find the two behaviors the same.

Feh.

(Pardon me for speaking in general terms.) What most of us failed to see and understand are the differences between our culture and the Muslims. Muslims, as most of us know, are not afraid to die. One proof to this is: they use their own body as a "human bomb" to prove or avenge what they believe in. What we don’t understand is the utmost humiliation those infamous pictures had brought to the Muslim men. One had Army Pfc. Lynndie England laughing at their privates and another had her pulling a naked Iraqi by the leash around his neck. Another picture had another American woman smiling and giving the “thumbs up” behind naked Iraqi men stacked in a human pyramid. These actions were very degrading to the Iraqis and to the Muslims, as a whole. In my own opinion, Muslims would prefer dying than be humiliated that way. In contrast, American men would probably prefer taking off their clothes than dying. Nothing wrong with either: it is just the way our culture is. How many Muslims compared to Americans would you see taking off their clothes in films? I am sure Muslim men would rather have their head cut off than have Lynndie England (a woman) ridiculed their manhood. I am sure those soldiers who carried those acts and took those pictures knew that humiliating the Iraqis the way they did was more hurtful to the Iraqis than killing them. As I am sure those Muslims who beheaded Nicolas Berg knew that killing him the way they did would hurt the Americans more than having him walk around naked. Still, there is no excuse for such actions by the Muslims or the Americans.

Well said Marko.
That is the point I have been trying to make on many pro-war pro-bush pro-GOP blogs.
Wemin the US are this elitist, decadent society that thingks our way of life is the ONLY way of life. And we even have an administration full of neoconervatives who will put our armed forces in harms way to further those ideals. We live in a society fules by sex, so we don't think of these actions taken against the arabs were much of a ig deal. Well, like Marko said, to an arab, it is worse than having your head sawed off.
So, yes, John - it is very equivalent in contrast to one anothers cultures.

Nick Berg was kidnapped 20 days before the pictures were released.

He was not executed because of the prison scandal. He was executed for the same reason Daniel Pearl was. He was an American Jew.

If the intention was to "saw" his head off because he was an American Jew, they would have done that way before those pictures were released. The fact that they executed him after the pictures were released had to be in retaliation for what the Americans did to the Iraqi prisoners. They might have picked him for the videotaping of the execution because he was not only an American, but also a Jew. It was like killing two birds with one stone.

It wasn't retaliation. It was going to happen, the scandal gave them a convenient excuse. They killed because he was not Muslim.

"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives." Surat Mohammed:4

From Meryl Yourish: "In the overwhelming majority of news articles, the fact that Nick Berg was Jewish is not deemed relevant. The only two Americans to be beheaded by terrorists were Jewish. But that's not relevant."

Excuse or not, we know this is bound to happen. There are always consequences to our actions. Unfortunately, the ones that pay the price are usually the innocents.

And I am tired of all this talk that these soliders acted on their own. I don't think so. I doubt any of them had the cultural background knowledge of how to shame their prisoners. I full beleive them in their claims that this was an act of military intelligence officers and not these baboons who were low level nco's and junior enlisted MP's. That is what makes this worse thereover. These acts of this arab terrosits were decentralized. I doubt very highly other than a jihad issued by bin laden for all muslims to kill americans, that this was staged from a high level. Our military, however, goes much higher. And THAT is what makes this far worse than a handful of americans being executed. Our torture is systematic and comes from much higher ranking people.
So yes, I fully blame the US for this kids death. The arabs who did the killing, however evil I think they are, are just symptoms of the real problem.

"So yes, I fully blame the US for this kids death."

Not just you, Nunya. Nicholas Berg's family is now blaming the U.S. government for the death of their son. They have filed a lawsuit against the Bush administration.

Rosemary - Nunva gets credit for coming over to my place and arguing. Even though we really aren't arguing anymore.

I will concede a slight bit on the cultural issues in re the relative equivalency, though I don't accept the basic premise of equality that you guys posit.

It doesn't change my basic premise. These people are still pissed of that the Spanish took Spain back.

Ignoring them isn't going to make them go away.

But like I said to Nunva over at my place. We don't have enough common ground to argue - nothing said here sways me. And nothing I say will sway them.

So, I'll quit arguing. You guys can call it a win, that's okay with me.

There is no winning in this. For us. For the chickenhawks fighting this war, or for the middle east.
I do not agree they are "trying to get back spain." Until a real war is brought by a real nation, should we ever pre-emptively attack. But trying to root out terrorists house by house in a region that is 4 times larger than our own country where the natives have lived for thousands of years, is futile. Either we nuke the whole fucking region and be done with it, or we pull out, put a fence around the whole place and let them throw shit at one another just like animals do. If they try to get out, then pick them off.
Fighting a war with them and trying to root them out one by one on their own turf is like pissing in the ocean against the wind blowing back you you and trying to raise the tide.

Nunya, Marko,

Facts are stubborn things.

No Christian has shouted "God is great" while killing an unbeliever since the Inquisition.

Al Quaeda pukes did it a couple of days ago.

Buy a clue boys and figure out that we are dealing with a 7th century culture that doesn't want to grow up.

I have condemned the treatment of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Ask around.

To equate "embarassing their Arab manhood" with sawing off Nick Berg's head is just silly.

How in the hell do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you mouth that crap?

Marko,
We seem to have alot in common. Perhaps we shoud meet for a movie? Or just coffee for starters.

Dave:

“No Christian has shouted "God is great" while killing an unbeliever since the Inquisition.” Some Christians, specifically some priests, did preach the teachings of God and at the same time molested children.

Whether it is a 7th century culture, it is not up to you and me to change that culture, just as it is not up to you and me to change a religion. How we like things doesn’t have to be how everybody should like things.

What those people did to Berg was unforgivable and those people must be punished tenfold. If Americans want to see justice served for this horrific act, then I say saw these people’s heads off. This is an eye for an eye, right? But you know by doing this, we won’t be getting anywhere and only the innocents will get hurt.

My point above about culture is, no matter how difficult it is to come to grips with what was done to Berg, I’ve tried to put myself in an Arab’s shoes and try to see (not understand but see) from their standpoint how it felt to be humiliated like that. You have to remember too that some of the Iraqi prisoners were sodomized. True, in our culture, beheading someone and insulting one’s manhood can’t even be compared. Maybe not to you and me, but it may be the same to an Arab.

"Marko,
We seem to have alot in common. Perhaps we shoud meet for a movie? Or just coffee for starters."

Sure, Nunya. As long as you pay. :)

"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and thou beside me reading Chomsky."

"Let me not to the marriage of true moonbats admit impediments."

"How do I hate Bush? Let me count the ways..."

...
I'm going to stop now.

marko

I cannot believe your tolerance for "culture". So we are just supposed to pat these miscreants on the head and say "there, there, your culture made you do it"? This "culture" is it just Iraqi "culture"? or Would that apply to all Arabs? You posted your apology for the masculine Arab sensiblities in several different sites today. Each time I read it I wanted to gag. Still do. Is there nothing these devils could do to another human being that you wouldn't excuse as "it's just there culture. Just ignore it." Excuse me while I throw up.

Jane M:

I posted on several different sites? You mean this site and Dean's World. Don't accuse me of something unless you have the facts straight.

Who, in the Arab world, is going after these assholes? What Imams are calling for the ouster of anyone?

It just proves the point that there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. If they are really out there then they must be very small in numbers or they know their heads will be next to roll...

HAIL TO THE QUEEN OF ALL EVIL!!!! HAIL TO THE QUEEN OF ALL GOOD!!!! HAIL TO THE QUEEN OF ALL!!!! AND HAIL TO THE KING!!!!

Yeah!!

Steven's back!!

I was a little worried about you.

Marko - I didn't post that last comment about the coffee - that was most likely Geoffrey Allen (he hasn't come out of the closet yet, so he must pose as others to get dates).

Secondly for Jane and Dave - nobody ever said the Arab culture made them kill Berg. We were stating that in their culture, they would rather die like Berg than be humiliated, like they were in that prison. Thye military made sure it fou8nd every possible way to degrade and dehumanize the prisoners in the worst possible way, based on the culture of arab muslims. Think of it like the Klingons on star trek. They are warriros with a culture rooted in fighting. They would rather die than be held prisoner. Where as we humans would rather live in a prison than die.
We were stating that the difference in our cultures (arab vs. western) equalizes the two crimes. By them beheading this kid, video taping it and stating that mothers and wives will watch this is equal to what our military did with the muslim soldiers by what the pictures showed.
SO yes, culture has everything to do with this discussion. And when our retarded government from texads gets that through their think white skuills, maybe they will have the sense to get the hll out of their and let their culture not mix with ours.
Like I have always said, put a fence around the whole middle east and let them fight and battle and praise allah til the cows come home. But if they try to go outside of their zoo, then kill them. Problem solved.

So, under the hypothesis Nunya and marko endorse, cultural relativism makes everything okay. In that case it would be perfectly okay if we shift American culture to the stance that we respond to any more executions of Americans with a very bright flash of light, ball of fire, and mushroom cloud over one city in a terrorist-supporting state for each dead American.
We could set it up so we perform these removals on an American holiday, set off fireworks, eat apple pie, and watch threats burn to ash. If it was part of our culture, those two (and their fellow travellers) couldnt complain, could they? It's 'equivalent.'

We're better than that. We're trying damn hard not to have to stack bodies in piles, we'd prefer the Islamic world to coexist with us in peace. We punish those who commit crimes such as abuse of prisoners. They need to start condemning and punishing these terrorists. But they cannot win against us, and they need to learn that.

Nobody is saying that the cultural realtivism makes everything ok. All I ask is that we recognize that the crimes are equal. One is not more henious than the other based on the cultures we are talking about.
Of course, in my "cure" I was being facetious. Myu thinking and philosophy has evolved past the school of thought that war is ever an option. Violence solves nothing. That goes for both sides. As Americans, leaders of the advanced world, we should be the leaders of re-tooling our schools of thought. Tme Arab middle east is still a region that is embattled and entrenched in fighting to solve their differences and swap territories through war. This has been the way for them for thousands of years and they are perfectly happy with. We will never change that no matter how many troops, missles, grenades, tanks and airplanes we throw at them. So, I say let them to their own devices and if they want to bring it outside of their borders, then we take action. But we cannot go attacking countries based on the incidents of a small group.

Nobody is saying that the cultural realtivism makes everything ok. All I ask is that we recognize that the crimes are equal. One is not more henious than the other based on the cultures we are talking about.
Of course, in my "cure" I was being facetious. Myu thinking and philosophy has evolved past the school of thought that war is ever an option. Violence solves nothing. That goes for both sides. As Americans, leaders of the advanced world, we should be the leaders of re-tooling our schools of thought. Tme Arab middle east is still a region that is embattled and entrenched in fighting to solve their differences and swap territories through war. This has been the way for them for thousands of years and they are perfectly happy with. We will never change that no matter how many troops, missles, grenades, tanks and airplanes we throw at them. So, I say let them to their own devices and if they want to bring it outside of their borders, then we take action. But we cannot go attacking countries based on the incidents of a small group.

But they have brought it outside their borders, Nunya. Saddam may not have planned or been aware of the 9/11 attacks, but he did lend support, aid and comfort to Al Qaeda, and that only reinforced his position as a self-declared enemy of the US. He had spent twelve years promising to 'get' the US, so we took him at his word and prevented him from ever being able to do so.

As for the people over there being happy with it, have you read any of the Iraqi bloggers? Most of them aren't to thrilled with the occupation, but see how many nice things they have to say about al Qaeda, Saddam, or Islamic fundamentalists in general. Check out the Iranians as well, while you're at it. Your arguements sound like those of a 19th century Yankee saying to let the Confederacy go their own way, it's their choice and the slaves are used to it anyway. Dfferent cultures, after all.

If abuse of prisoners and beheading an innocent man are in any way, shape, or form "equivalent" then by all means lets make it equal, and execute each and every prisoner after we're done interrogating them.

As a historical note, during the British occupation of India, there were complaints about the prohibition against wife burning (if a family failed to pay a sufficient dowry, the wife was burned to death). A British general, I believe, was told that it was their cultural tradition. He responded that it was British tradition to hang those who murdered people. His statement, roughly was "So you may erect your bonfire, and next to it we shall erect a gallows. And you may carry out your tradition, and we shall carry out ours."

The gallows is erected for the Islamic fundamentalists. They can carry out their traditions, or they can survive.

So Iraq was ther only nation to aid and comfort terrorists? In case you haven't noticed, the #1 nation to aid, harbour and breed terrorists is the good ol USA. Our money funds more terrorist activity than any other. We also made Bin Laden who he is today. So Al Qeada is a monster we, the USA, created.
And what are we going to do every time we are attacked by a rouge group? Pick a nation and go after them? If that is the case, lets do it. But for chrissakes, lets not put up a smoke screen and go after them for spongey reasons. WMD's? Come on, if Saddam really had them and the means to deliver them, he would have done so first chance he got.
And I know it is a tired argument - but what about North Korea? They have the nukes, they have tested the nukes, they have threatened to use the nukes, but we sit around on our collective asses doing nothing about it. Worse yet, we have Taiwan sitting there wanting to keep their freedom, and not only do we not help them, we takes China's side! Democrfacy is not a pick and choose system, especially the way we claim to implement it. Of cours,e this is why I think the neoconservative chickenhawks are full of more shit than any other political faction - the reality is, they fight wars not to spread freedom, but to spread freedom for them to do business and make money.
Wars today are not fought by us for anything others than money. All Bush is, is a corporation disguised as a human being in the whitehouse.
As far as culture is concerned, your historical comparison holds no water. You cannot do tit for tat when it comes to what we are talking about. Cultural traditions are not a particularly dynamic thing, so you cannot say "ohj, well if that is your culturte, we will make it ours too and do the same thing to you..."
It just doesn't work that way. And as for your statement about executing the arabs - that is what they would prefer. The humiliation to them is worse than death. You are talkimg about people who have no problem walking into a building and blowing themselves up. So an execution is honorable to them. Humiliation, degredation, and forced sexual acts, is far worse than anything else to them.
And of course, my fundamental argument is the eye for an eye approach has so far proven not to work in any case. Violence only begets more violence.

I heard what you said nunya, and it's still the silliest damn thing I've ever read posted on this site. It's racist too. All I ask is that we recognize that the crimes are equal. One is not more henious than the other based on the cultures we are talking about. Why nunya? Don't the poor little ragheads know any better?

That is racist bullshit.

Contrary to your quaint notions, violence has solved a great number of problems. Doesn't make it desirable. But it is occasionally necessary. To wit, why we are holding back on NK. It isn't necessary right now.

And Taiwan? What the hell do you know about Taiwan? Exactly how are we taking the PRC's side? Did we say "Go ahead, invade. Send troops. Reel them in like Hong Kong"?

No. We endorse a one-China policy that protects Taiwan from the PRC, gives them liberty and democracy and self-determination and keeps the PRC off their backs. And we remind the PRC of our committment to the Taiwan Relations Act. Every now and again the PRC rattles the saber, but they know what we know, that to take it by force means to destroy what you want, a robust and mature economy. So they won't. And they complain to us about our protection, but they still buy our dollars.

I have lived and worked in Taipei, and TaiChung, in 1999 and 2000, and I'll let you in on something. A minority percentage of Taiwanese, call it 20%, favor reunification. A roughly equal percentage advocate declaration of independence.

The majority however, like things just the way they are. Don't rock the boat and we'll all be fine.

Let's see - you use a derrogatory term like "raghead" but I am the racist/. Amazing you republicans truly. At least the dems know they are liars - but the GOP really beleive in their own spew.

Over and over I can try to explain and it seems it is banging a nail into an iron beam. Why is it so hard to see what our military did was far worse than 3 or 4 beheadings? Because what our military did and is doing is SYSTEMATIC. It is part of the policy. What these extermist did is not systematic. They happened to take a random hostage and execute him. Just as they did daniel pearl. As tragic as that is and I feel deeply sorry for the families - that is just reality. You cannot go getting angry and attacking a whole race and/or country over it. And that breaks down this whole premise that the Bush Administration used when they shifted gears from "we need to get rid of the WMD's" (after they didnt find them) to "we need to get rid of the terrorists."
Get rid of the terrorist, fine. But dont make more enemies than we already have. Don't attack and condemn a entire race of people. Unfortunatly, that is what you and others here are suggesting.
The saddest part is, I am seeing little to no condemnation of what our very own military has done to their POWs. That is more disturbing than any action these bastards who killed Berg did. They are psychopaths. I expect that kind of behavior out of them. I don't expect bloodthirstyness out of the president of the USA nor out of the people who live here either.

And on the subject of non-violence. It worked for Ghandi. It worked for Martin Luther King Jr. Ghandi freed and entire nation with a non-violent philosophy. King kept a race war from breaking out in the midst of an already charged nation of many social issue with, might I add, other black leaders like Malcomb X and the Black Panther Party trying to super charge things.
And how do we know a non-violoent approach will not work if we have never tried it?

Oh catch on please. I used the word to express the vile line of crap you are fomenting here about moral equivalance. I put words in your mouth. Get it now?

I didn't say non-violence doesn't work in all circumstances. I simply said, contrary to your position, violence can and does solve problems. How do we know a non-violent approach won't work, if we never tried it? What, like 12 years of sanctions?

Ghandi and King weren't dealing with a war were they (well, Ghandi was after the Brits left)?

If you are amending your earlier comments to say you are not surprised by what terrorists do, I agree, so what? But equivalent? No way.

I take it you have no comment on Taiwan.

Good republican! Good! Spin my words! I said, I am not suprised by what terrorists do but not only is not not equivilant to what we do, but we WE do is worse because it is SYSTEMATIC. WHat they do is random if at best randomly calculated. Get it?

And Taiwan - you a re going to beleive what you are going tr beleive in. I go by facts and fact is on Feb. 3rd of this year Dick Armitage specifically stated the US's postion on is adhereing to a one-china policy and directly stated that we are opposed to Taiwanese independence. www.chinaconsulatesf.org/eng/zhuanti/taiwan/twnews/t61846.htm

With that, it shows that the chickenhawk neocons can't even stand byu their own ideals. Their mantra should be "Making the word safe for business - so we can make huge profits."

And what makes you think King was not dealing with a "war." Do you realize how close were were to a race war. The Nation of Islam was trying to induce a seperation of the races. The Black Panthers were trying to charge the atmosphere in the black community to get them so fired up that it would have been a massacre between them and local law enforcements in the city. Remember, you don't need to have a country to have a war - your president made that very clear.

Ah, there's the truth from Nunya. . . American abuses are "systematic" whereas Islamic fundamentalist terrorists are "random" and therefore acceptable.
Bullshit. On both counts.
The Islamic fundamentalists want their culture to supersede ours, on this continent as well as Asia, Africa, and Europe. The rest of the Muslim world has failed so far to control their extremists, so in self-defense we will do so, if at the very last in means burning the Middle East to bedrock. We are engaged in a 'hearts and minds' campaign because our only other rational choice is mass slaughter. Leaving this cancer to fester will only cause it to spread and destroy modern civilization. I do not find cultures to be equal, ours is by FAR superior, by their own peoples standards as well as our own. . . how many Muslims immigrate to the US each year? Whereas any emigration to the ME, barring Israel, is statistically insignificant.

Saddam Hussein made Iraq a continuing threat to the US. At the same time he slaughtered his people, corrupted the United Nations, supported terrorism, and applauded 9/11, while promising with each speech that, as soon as they were ready, they would make war on the US. So you wonder why we atacked Iraq? Why WOULDNT we, after 9/11 the effectiveness of sponsoring terrorists as opposed to futilely trying to use force of arms against us would have been a million times more attractive. He had to go, immediately, before he could act as he had already said he would have acted.

As for Ghandi, he was up against the British, who have a tradition of restraint and civility. If he had been up against Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, there'd be about 10 million Indians now, because they'd have killed him first and slaughtered the rest. Non-violence would work great against us as well, we'd declare victory and leave, because we would have won our objective. It will NOT work against the Islamic fanatics, it just makes us more into the "weak horse" Osama likes to rant about.

I didn't hear anything about Taiwan? What happen? Been called out? Keep picking apart pieces fo what I write, and put words into my mouth. AND YET AGAIN, I never said neither was accetable. The extermists are animals, and so is anyone in our military for allowing the torturing of POWs. We condemn every other military faction for doing the things we do, but when we do it, it is OK, because it is for a good cause.
Always the typical, arrogant, elitist, americans-are-holier-than-thou attitude that Bush has sold you on.
You are no more than a sheep and since you cannot seem to sustain a debate by other than mixing and mincing my words, than I am done with you.

Nunya is still here? My deepest regrets Rosemary, it seems our trash at Dog Snot has migrated. Leave it to NeoCUNT to share an anology of the Berg Tragedy and the Klingons.

"Think of it like the Klingons on star trek. They are warriros with a culture rooted in fighting. They would rather die than be held prisoner. Where as we humans would rather live in a prison than die."

Ha Ha! You got to be fucking kidding me right Nunya? Not only are you so ignorant of Middle East Culture that you call it a warrior caste society but you compare it to the Klingons from Star Trek: The New Generation?

The Klingons? Holy shit! I'm LMAO!

This just reaffirms my suspicions that NeoCUNT is still living in his Mom's basement watching Star Trek re-runs and paying his rent by filing her corns before Matlock at 8.

Buh-bye Nunya. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.

HAIL TO THE QUEEN!!!!

Yes, I'm back -- finally. No phene and no DSL for over a month, hence no Internet, no blogging, no e-mails. Had to do with switching from one long-distance to a crummy one to (I hope!) a better one. Anyway...

Violence has solved many problems. The American colonists won their (our) independence through violence. The Northern armies put down secession and put an end to slavery through violence. The Allied armies destroyed the Nazis through violence. We kept the Soviets at bay through threat of massive violence. The non-violent aspect of the Civil Rights struggle has been over-emphasized. Many Negroes had guns to protect themselves from lynching. Gun control was introduced in the South after the Civil War with the intent of disarming the black people and thus keeping them subjugated, segregated. Never give up your gun. Never give up your freedom. I wish every woman was armed and ready to shoot down rapists. The streets would run red with blood and there would be that fewer rapists.

I'm for a one-China policy: recognize only Free China and revoke recognition from Communist China. One of the biggest blunders (or was it treason?) our government ever made was recognizing the so-called "People's Republic" of Communist China. I'm anti-Communist -- proudly.

Look, nunya, I understand you don't get the one-China policy. It's complex. But go read something before you just blather on about it like you have a clue.

Nixon opened the door to the PRC because we were headed down the same road as we had with the Soviets. Mao had crushed his nation and bled them to the point where they couldn't feed themselves. A country that's big, hungry, and belligerent is dangerous. Now they are becoming capitalists. A vibrant economy, a stable populace, protection of private property and industry by law - how crazy is that?

They buy dollars. They sell us billions in products. Their economy would collapse without US trade. See how it worked out? They need us. But we don't need them.

Keeps them safe while capitalism works its way through them like a cancer. They haven't arrived, not by a long shot. But it is definitely the right direction.

The one-China policy was the price of poker. It kept the PRC off of Chang Kai-Shek's throat and gave them a chance to develop into something remarkable, the third largest economy in Asia. Taiwan finally held free elections in the 1990s (it wasn't a democracy under Kai Shek, it was a totalitarian state).

Every President since Nixon has said the same thing you are whining about. "We do not advocate independence for Taiwan". Because when we do, the PRC decides it's time to save face, and they obliterate Taiwan. They can do it. And if we give them a reason they will do it.

It's goofy but it works. Has worked for 30 years. Communism is crumbling in the PRC. 30 years from now they'll be freer than Russians.

As to your moral equivalence diatribe, that's still BS. So is comparing the civil rights struggle in the 60s to warfare.

Now, go unwad your panties and call someone else names while insisting that makes you a fabulous debater.

Nunya

I hope you're gone but just in case you are still lurking around, I wanted to ask you what your credentials are as an expert on Arab or Islamic "culture". Where did you complete your middle-east studies?

Oh, I thought so...no credentials...just an active imagination. You really can spew a boatload of off-the-wall, home-spun semi-literate bull shit if ever anybody can.

"Marko - I didn't post that last comment about the coffee - that was most likely Geoffrey Allen"

Is this another way for Republicans to steal votes by posing as someone else? Figures...

Oh look, Jane M., the accuser, is back!

No, it is just a way of life for the loser I mentioned. And this is one loser whp has multiple personalities. He goes by Geoffrey, Gordon the Magnificent, Jonathan, Michelle, Stacy, and a slew of other names. Then he likes to forge posts and post as real folks. I guess when you have run out of alter egos, you just need to borrow someone elses person.

Need a crying towel Nunya?

So sorry for ya "gordon" that you can't change my posts here. You chickenhawk.

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks

Are chickenhawks like the Klingons too?

Ha!

Nunya is full of shit.

I know Michelle and she's definitely NOT Geoffrey.

I might let her be me for a day, though.

Well, that would be interesting. ;-)

"I doubt any of them had the cultural background knowledge of how to shame their prisoners."

What the kinda statement is that, Nunya...

Since when do you need a college degree to know how to be sadistic?

I served ten years in the Army and got out as a Platoon Sergeant, so I tell you this from my own personal experience.

I've seen enlisted men pull off some really stupid stuff. And all the while they managed to keep it hidden from their superiors.

Now, these "soldiers" that commited these acts are human beings. They were put into a position which gave them life and death power over their charges, and they took advantage of their power, Period.

Being typical enlisted men they thought they were being pretty slick too. They thought that they were soo slick that they actually showed a picture to one ot their fellow soldiers, who thank god, had a moment of clarity and reported the activities of these sick f*cks to the IG, and the case was handled.

Now as a point of contention to your statement above "their claims that this was an act of military intelligence officers and not these baboons who were low level nco's and junior enlisted MP's."

I can tell you've never served in the military. That is what we senior NCO's like to call a piss poor excuse...

Contrary to your opinion, we NCO's aren't a bunch of mindless drones who's only goal in life is to scream at people, and have someone wipe the drool from our enedumacated chins.

Many of us NCO's take time during our heavy training and combat rotations to secure ourselves a degree while still serving.

And so you understand, I've had an officer who was not in my chain of command order me to do something that I knew wasn't right and I told him in a very respectful manner, "Let me check with my platoon leader." And that was the end of discussion.

The way I see it is as follows, if the young Spec-4 new well enough that what these sh*tbirds were doing was wrong, then the f-nuts that were doing these acts knew better too.

Stop trying to make life easy for the pukes that were committing these acts by making excuses for their actions.

Anyone else curious?

Nick Berg "came to Iraq w/ little more than a bag of tools". He traveled alone much of the time, despite clear warnings to the contrary---"He never listened to anyone". He resisted the advice of friends, family, Iraqi contacts, and U.S. business contacts to leave.

By age 26, he had dropped out of Cornell, worked transmission towers in Texas, traveled Africa, and started a business in upscale West Chester, PA.
The U.S. business was cleverly named Prometheus Methods Tower Service. Prometheus, you will recall from H.S. mythology, was a traitor who stole technology from the "gods" and gave it to mere mortals. Immortal Prometheus was tortured, shackled, and hung over an edge---indirectly leading to the opening of Pandora's Box. Think on that one a while.

Someone named Greene, owner of a "small technology company in NC that just happened to ALSO have an 8-man, government-contracted Iraqi business", held a 2-day business conference in N.VA. Greene is one busy guy; Berg's type. Though attendance surpassed 400 and the two were in contact just 2 days, Greene became well enough acquainted with Berg to comment, "Nick (first name basis) decided to go over and see if he could find some work."

Berg's mother worried his "favorite blue-checked shirt would make him stand out as a foreigner." I can't help associating this nonsensical trivia w/ John Nash seeing patterns in print.

Berg was an American Jew. Let's play a guessing game: What two things do Iraqi Muslims hate most of all? Final answer: Jews and Americans. Why isn't there a non-profit "American Jews for Iraq". Socratic answer: Why would there be?

Berg flew first to Tel Aviv, then on to Jordan. Flew to Jordan? He could have walked, or driven---much less expensive for a supposed wandering soul. From there, he obtained a ride to Baghdad. Berg checked into the large, well-to-do Babylon Hotel---does he strike you as an idealistic, out-of-work twenty-something on a budget, or does this guy seem well funded?

Berg had a short haircut, "like a Marine". Interestingly, he had contact with the U.S. military.
Omar Abdul Karim was "startled to see Berg take a taxicab to the Green Zone... ...headquarters of the Coalition Provisional Authority." Maybe the Marines needed another good man?

Before leaving the U.S., Berg had been in contact with Aziz Taee, an Iraqi from the Philadelphia area (coincidentally or not, Berg's home base) and chairman of an investment group in Iraq. Upon Berg's arrival, Taee and Berg started a business in Iraq, Babylon Towers. Is it just me, or does this conjure images of the Tower of Babel? There were business cards and a rented office; one would think the entrepreneurs might actually work to get the business off the ground. Not Berg. This bird flew Cornell and a West Chester business; a little thing like a partnership with an Iraqi businessman wasn't going to tie him down. He'd come to Iraq to "help". Berg took off again.
Iraqi police became suspicious and detained him. Our very own FBI interviewed him 3 times.
Everyone seemed to sense something didn't add up with this guy.

Berg returned home to the U.S. in February, less than 2 months after his initial arrival in Iraq---"without having found steady work". Well, if he'd put some effort into his business w/ Taee...

A month later, Berg flew back to Jordan and got into Iraq once again. He now applied for work with a U.S. based company that affectionately nicknamed him "Tower Man", claiming he was "familiar with all the towers" and "appeared to live for climbing towers" knowing "anything and everything having to deal w/ towers".
What copious use of the word TOWERS... Would there be an association with the word "towers" and a blue-checked shirt? Where is John Nash when we need him?

Berg visited a "distant relative" in Mosul. Come again? An American Jew with an Iraqi relative in Mosul? It gets better. While in that hostile town, instead of staying with his relative, he checked into a hotel. This guy just lived for danger. The clerk at the hotel recalled he had "Iranian, Jordanian, and Iraqi" money on his person. (I routinely carry Mexican, Canadian, and U.S.) He left the hotel to "visit friends" in the city. Now he had family AND friends in Mosul? This wasn't Tower Man; Berg was Mad Networker on Steroids.
Next thing we knew, Iraqi police picked up a dazed Berg outside his hotel and arrested him for 13 days. U.S. military informed the FBI. Of course, the "substance of the interviews is still not clear". Why would it be?

Berg's parents began to suspect the U.S. had not-so-nice intentions for their son and filed a petition of illegal detention by the U.S. Military. Yet the military wasn't detaining Berg. Didn't we read the IRAQI POLICE were holding him?

After his release, Berg returned to a Baghdad hotel he'd stayed in one night before traveling to Mosul. Thoughtfully, he emailed Taee, the business partner he'd abandoned, saying only, "You must think I am a real flake for not contacting you". Well? Again, understating the obvious, he added, "I ran into a little problem in Mosul", and concluded with a bit of advice from one American Jew to an Iraqi, "If you are still in Baghdad, I hope you're keeping your head down. Take it easy. Stay in touch!" Stay in touch? How about, "Sorry for abandoning our business. Let's get together and talk." The two were in the same town, after all. And wouldn't it all add up: Berg, asking Taee to "keep HIS head down..."
Berg left his Baghdad hotel four days after being freed, leaving behind a weight set in the room. A weight set? Where and how does an out-of-work, recently freed foreigner w/ no fixed address find a "weight set" in a war-torn country? I'll tell you. The Baghdad Walmart. That's what. It makes perfect sense.
The Muslims who played kamikaze pilots with our planes last September 11th behaved very much the same way---as if there were no tomorrow.

Funny, Berg could buy weights but apparently not a razor. Known for his shaved head and Marine-like appearance, he grew a full head of hair and beard in the brief span of time between his release and subsequent execution.
The video might offer some clarity, but we can't seem to keep the it on the "free" Internet; someone keeps removing it. Someone thinks it's more detrimental to watch Berg's death than those of innocent Americans jumping from the burning WTC towers. There's that word again, towers.

Next thing anyone knew, Berg was dead.
Or is he?
Wonder what's inside Pandora's Box for the rest of us?

Oh come on Anita - Bush and His Administration and the rest of the GOP and the military told is the truth already. They NEVER lie. Why can't you beleive them? They are honest people, all of them. There is no hidden conspiracy. The things they don't want us to see are for our own good and to protect us.
Did you also know that your questioning of this whole this in unpatriotic?
Remember, even Bush said it himself - either you are with him or with the terrorists. So I guess you must be a terrorist.

Chist you're stupid NeoCUNT. You misunderstood Anita's point.

Like I said, you're your own worst enemy.

Christ you are thick, "gordon"

my entire last post was SARCASM.

You chickenhawk.

Sure it was.

I need a new tampon please.

Comrade Arne,

If you are going to chastise me for making comments to someone else (Nunya) that you aren't obliged to read and respond to (quote "am I supposed to read your mind?) then why are you going to make arguments to me about comments directed to someone else?

Can't resist? Fine. But don't lecture me about it, ok?

You want to appear clever, so allow me to spell out what I meant (as if you really need this, you're just grandstanding).

Violence solved Nazism, Communism, Japanese Imperialism and aggression against Asia.

That is what I meant. Refute if you want (won't that be fun to read).

You lied

I never. Read above.

apparently 12 years of sanctions worked

Not according to John Kerry. France. Germany. Russia. et.al.

Ghandi/King popourri. Pick one would you?

Ghandi succeeded in getting the Brits to quit. He never succeeded in getting the Muslims and Hindus to live in peace. Please refute if possible.

King. Nunya said war. I said it wasn't. That's all.

You are ignorant of his (Ghandi's) beliefs

I am not. I believe I've demonstrated that. I don't need to study jack shit about Ghandi, at least in any context you've attempted to bring up.

Hugs and Kisses.

To the murderers of Nicholas Berg and to the murderers of Daniel Pearl and to the murderers of the 3000 men and women in the World Trade Center, I say only:

I hate your guts.