Cindy Sheehan deserves answers about this war because she's an *American.* Full stop. The reason the right is demonizing her, and the reason she gets under their skin, is because they see more and more Americans questioning Bush's "experiment" in Iraq, and they can't do a damn thing about it other than wish he gave more speeches, or that Cindy Sheehan would sit down and shut up.
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
Adam, I am sure that is what you believe to be true, but I have yet to talk to someone that feels that way.
She put herself out there and as free as she is to speak, so are we.
I think it's safe to say that we travel in somewhat different circles. :-) And of course, everyone's free to savage Cindy Sheehan as much as they please. I've never said differently, and I never will. I'm just pointing out the right's curious *need* to savage her.
Rosemary:
Be honest - if it wasn't Israel, it would be something else. (Her divorce papers, perhaps?) She is speaking out against the war and against the President, so she must be destroyed. There is no person - NO person - who spoke out forcefully against this war who would be respected and "left alone" by the right. Paul Hackett becomes a "staff puke," and on and on and on. The thing is, as I've said over and over, the more the right attacks her, the more powerful she becomes as a symbol. The President and his surrogates made Cindy Sheehan what she is today.
It's like Flint, Michigan with the Money Magazine story that put them at 300 out of 300 cities. It would have been much better for them to just ignore the story. But instead, they made a huge stink about it, thereby exposing lots more people to the wonderland that was Flint, and making themselves seem petty. "Look! She's getting divorced!" has the same desperate feel.
adam- it appears that it is you that needs to be honest. We are talking about her speaking out against Israel. We are talking about her calling the insurgents "freedom fighters". We are talking about her saying America got what it deserved. We are talking about her claiming to do this in the name of her son. We are talking about the fact that she has had this planned for over 1 year. We are talking about her using other peoples children for her cause without the family' consent. We are talking about the fact that she is a puppet for her movement. We are talking about Cindy and not Casey.
one more thing adam. I have talked about her divorce, but more than that I have talked about the living children she has. If those kids ask you to come home because they need you and you choose not to, I think you are in need of some very serious help. And I have said many times that I would donate a good sum of money to get her the help she needs. That to me is the tragic part of this whole thing.
Be honest - if it wasn't Israel, it would be something else. (Her divorce papers, perhaps?)
You think what she said about Israel is equivalent to someone releasing the fact that she is getting divorced? Gimme a flipping break. She is a celebrity now and celebrities have their divorces made public. Shit happens.
She is speaking out against the war and against the President, so she must be destroyed. There is no person - NO person - who spoke out forcefully against this war who would be respected and "left alone" by the right.
Left alone? You have apparantly missed the point of my post. You are free to speak and say what you wish but you are not entitled to be left alone. We all have the same rights and if you want to stand on your soapbox and declare George Bush a terrorist and is Israel the root of all evil, I have a right to say you're wrong. I also have a right to say your words are fascist supporting, nazi-like and sheer idiocy. You don't have a right to escape scruity and neither does anyone that speaks publically.
Paul Hackett becomes a "staff puke," and on and on and on. The thing is, as I've said over and over, the more the right attacks her, the more powerful she becomes as a symbol. The President and his surrogates made Cindy Sheehan what she is today.
I don't know who Paul Hackett is so whatever. The media has made Cindy Sheehan what she is today, they obviously ran out of missing white girls.
You want honesty? Here is a little for you: This is politics. The Democrats aren't innocent angels in the game and the Republicans aren't the source of all evil. You're angry when your side takes a hit and that is natural but you also seem to be oblivious to the hits coming from your side. You believe your own hype and that is dangerous. Lots of good people have been destroyed by the Democrats for the simple crime of being conservative or being chosen by a Republican President.
It is pathetically whiny and hypocritical to hear you liberals cry about your heroes/spokesmen being bashed when your own weapons of destruction are still warming your hands and prominent Republicans are left bleeding on the floor at your feet.
I was going to try to formulate a response to Pam and Rosemary's last comments, but the combination of righteous anger, hyperbole, sanctimoniousness and disingenuousness has knocked me on my ass. ("get the help she needs," "believe your own hype," "bleeding on the floor," etc. etc.) It's too much for my poor fascist-supporting idiot Nazi mind to deal with. My points stand, if not reinforced by your comments. Carry on.
to save people the trouble Paul Hackett is the Iraqi (Fallujah, etc) war vet that gave the GOP incumbant, Jean Schmidt, a run for her money in the heavily republican Ohio 2nd District in a special election at the beginning of this month.
I believe Bush got 72% there last nov. and the incumbant was originallt forecast to get roughly the same. A blogroots donation campagin was set up and the incumbant got 52% this time around. (close but not good enough.)
The right savaged him, e.g. Limbaugh said he "only went to Iraq to pad his resume". On the other hand he was very vocal on attacking Bush. (I think he called him a chicken hawk and a few other things.)
I don't like Cindy Sheehan because she is famous for saying nasty, untrue things about me and people I admire. I know she believes they are true. But they are false. I know she believes they are fair. But they are nasty. I'm willing to cut her some slack because of her grief. But not enough to fail to point out that she is saying nasty, untrue things, although I would normally prefer the phrase "absurd allegations". In this case I think the more direct language is helpful.
It's pretty simple, really. I know that you don't like certain people who, though not famous, say things about you and people you admire which you believe are nasty and untrue. I can respect that. I might even agree with you about the nastiness and the falsehood on occasion. And on other occasions I might not.
And I'm sure I've said things which are nasty and untrue about people myself. I try to avoid it, but it ususally slips out while watching the news. Mrs. Wince often chastises me for it, since she thinks it sets a bad example for the kids. Mrs. Wince, as usual, is right.
Utterly classless, I say. It reminds me of Fred Phelps leading protests at people's funerals who die of AIDS. I really wish Reverend Phelps would convert to Christianity and begin serving the community as the pastor of a church.
I appreciate your bringing this thread back to reality, and sanity. As I've said again and again, I don't begrudge anyone's freedom to say whatever they want about Cindy Sheehan. I'm not "crying" about that at all - it's expected. I was just trying to make the point that no matter who the person is, no matter what their background or their past statements, if they are against this war or this President in any way, the current thinking is that they must be destroyed utterly. No anti-Iraq war comment must be allowed to stand, ever.
Any person can be smeared - there's always something. And there's no spokesperson who couldn't be made out to be a devil by Fox, Michelle Malkin, LGF, etc. But it's just a distraction from the main point: more and more people are realizing that this war was a mistake.
Even more importantly, from a PR standpoint, savaging a woman who to a lot of people is sympathetic (yes, because of her son) just isn't smart. I don't know why the right doesn't get that. LGF has five posts on its front page alone right now about her, each with hundreds of comments.
People like Dean are always saying there are ways for people to criticize this war and this President without earning his undying wrath as fascist racist Nazi-lovers. But he's never found an example. Strange, huh? So I guess we're going to have to decide for ourselves what's appropriate, without his guidance.
As for the protesters, I don't think a hospital is a proper place for a protest like that. And if anyone is being "harassed," then that should stop. But comparing them to Phelps is outrageous. Phelps believes the people at the funerals he pickets deserved their fate, and will burn in Hell for it; Code Pink believes the wounded shouldn't have been wounded in the first place. Subtle difference, I know. :-)
Steven Malcolm Anderson 4 GodsSelfSex (mail) (www):
As far as I'm concerned, Cindy Sheehan is a despicable gnat who has been magnified ou of all proportion by the mass media into the Saint of the New Millennium. I distrust and dislike all media-manufactured "saints" and Sheehan is the worst of the lot. I have no sympathy with her whatsoever. She is using her dead son for treasonous political purposes he would never have countenanced had he lived. Casey Sheehan would have spat in her face, as she is now spitting in his.
"Colorful and interesting"? Well, I must confess that I have come to find Rev. Fred Phelps so perfect a foe that I find it impossible to hate him. Wince, that was excellent: "I really wish [he] would convert to Christianity...."
As for others, Pat Buchanan still does have a certain style, but it's been many years since I've taken even a morbid interest in the ideas of David Duke, William Pierce, George Lincoln Rockwell, Arthur Butz, or the rest of that ilk. Heard one Jew-hater attack "Zionist imperialism", you've heard them all. That stuff was stale in the days of Father Coughlin and Gerald Winrod. It was stale when they wrote the "Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion". It was stale when they first invented the "well-poisoners" lie, the Blood Libel, and the "Christ-killer" lie. It is the Nazis who are the Christ-killers.
Of all the despicable things that Sheehan bashers like SMA do, predicting Casey Sheehan's reaction is the worst. Although I must admit, "would have spat in his own mother's face" has, as they say, a certain style.
Have you connected the dots on everything I said? Cindy Sheehan is smearing people. That's what nasty, untrue means, although it is an even harsher way to say it. Is that smart for the anti-war side?
I had the same viseral reaction to the Walter Reed protestors that I have to Fred Phelps. My emotions, the deep down part of my soul, say they are the same. I don't like the anti-war crowd in this country. They have history with me, and it is an ugly history. I don't like their methods. I don't like their thinking. I don't like their allies and I don't like their results. The worst ones are hateful bigots like Fred Phelps. They are anti-military bigots. I love the military. I admire the military. I appreciate the sacrifices of the military. Anti-military bigots, especially the condescending ones who claim they are only doing what's best for the soldiers, make my blood boil. And there are plenty of unconscious anti-military bigots out there too, Adam.
I have a problem with bigots, Adam. And that's reality, too.
Did you know that Fred Phelps is anti-war? But he says 9/11 was just punishment for a nation of insert-hateful-word-that-means-cigarettes-in-Britain-here. And he leads protests at military funerals.
Perhaps some of the reaction to Cindy Sheehan is reflexive hatred of anti-military bigots. 'Cause one you realize that many of the anti-war folks are anti-military bigots they all start to look like that, even when they aren't bigotted at all.
OTOH, I do like the Christian anti-war folks much better. Nuns especially. They pray. They have candlelight vigils. They are kind. They don't accuse. They say things like "I'm glad Saddam Hussien isn't in power" and "I'm sad for all the boys who won't come home". They sing, "Give Peace a chance". Deeply religious people, approaching the war from a deeply religious perspective, are very easy for me to tolerate. They are the exception, not the rule.
Maybe you can be my first tolerable anti-war atheist. Can you act like a nun? :)
Her "heroic" son probably reenlisted to received the reenlistment bonus, plus the extra $5000 a year and the tax-exempt status afforded to soldiers in combat. I live in a country that currenlty has 35,000 US TRoops stationed here. I see them all the time...and Ihave to say, they probably have no other job options in the world. They are not the "sharpest knives in the drawer" and it becomes very evident by their behaviour that they probably enjoy killing and all the ramifications of war. I have heard US GI's comment that life would be a lot more exciting here in Korea if "we just fucking slaughtered those commies." I admit that some people still join the military because they are brave, but most join because they would have a job otherwise.
I can only aspire to be your first tolerable anti-war atheist. (Although I would call myself an agnostic. Could I *be* any more of a pussy? :-)
It's funny you mention nuns, because closer to the start of the war, I remember well attending a talk by Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun who has been outspokenly anti-war. Fascinating woman - forceful and smart and passionate.
As for Fred Phelps: if you want to equate him with anti-war protestors, I can't stop you. I understand your emotions, even though I think the difference is clear. But have you seen anti-Iraq-war protestors (other than Phelps) attacking or smearing soldiers, as they did in the Vietnam era? I would say now that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women in our military, but I doubt most of the people here would believe me. Especially because the prevailing attitude is, if you're against this war, you're automatically a traitor and helping the Islamofascists kill more U.S. soldiers. So I won't even try.
I'm not anti-military, people of limited means, those poor unemployed, otherwise homeless vagrants who would be begging for change and tyring to force your windshiled clean should enlist in the Military, it is a more noble cause...and you get to deposit up to $10,000 at 10% interest! That is, if you don't spend it all on liquor and prostitutes!
I've read about anti-war protestors smearing troops in some of the protests. And, yes, they still use the baby-killer tag. But so far, this has been rare.
justme,
And an anti-Christian bigot, too! When do we hear the racial and ethnic slurs?
Get a dictionary before you use big words you don't understand "Wince".
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
This is the type of thing that stirs ant-conservatism...when people like you just bound in on your name-calling horse and drop your dirt. Is it not fair to question why people do things like join the Military? Anyone who calls troops "baby-killers" is an idiot and is pushing the envelope of free speech. They are no better than Phelps.
And yes, I have had some nasty experiences with Christianity; I am from a province in Canada where Catholic Priests and Nuns, United Chruch Ministers and those of the cloth of all sects of Christianity have been abusing boys, girls and native people for years. I apologize, I should distinguish betweens Christians and those who actually follow the example of Jesus, whatever they call themselves.
I don't see where you would have fallen outside that definition, based on the material you had presented at the time. I have to smile though. What made you think I would write what I wrote, then read what you wrote, and then not call you a bigot? Cause either you are a bigot, or you are utterly tactless. Try posting a comment which isn't stream of insults.
tactless: Lacking or exhibiting a lack of tact; bluntly inconsiderate or indiscreet.
Given your characterization of our troops as ignorant, stupid, bloodthirsty, whoring drunks who couldn't hold down a normal job, I'm voting for bigot. My Dad, the chemical engineer with a law degree served in Germany. One of my best friends, the software project manager with a degree in IS, served in Korea, among other places. My cousin the pilot served in the Air Force, as did my uncle - all over the world.
If you want to live down the tag, try saying some kind words that show you care and understand. Like this:
Anyone who calls troops "baby-killers" is an idiot and is pushing the envelope of free speech. They are no better than Phelps.
Oh, that was you. Maybe there's hope. Hey, and look at this:
I apologize, I should distinguish betweens Christians and those who actually follow the example of Jesus, whatever they call themselves.
Of course that was after you stereotyped from the actions of a tiny minority of Christian ministers to smear them all. You know, stereotyping, generalizing from a few bad examples to the larger group. Something bigots do.
I mean, really, justme. How the heck do you expect me to respond to what you wrote?
I guess that you don't know that the word "you" can be used as a plural and not actually mean you personally.
The "you" that I was using was meant in the broader sense. You, Adam, are still missing my point. Both sides engage in character assassination all the time. While you and yours are bemoaning what is happening to your compatriots you are ignoring the fact that you and yours are doing the same to mine and Pam's and Wince's and Steven's and Dean's...
Of course, I was being hyperbolic but my point still stands. Just think for a moment what has been said about John Robert's in the past week. Or Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney during the last 5 years.
Your indignation is as laughable as John Kerry's campaign. It's a joke.
Look at what I said above, I did not say all military people, I said that a minority of them enlist for noble reasons. Your Dad and your friend, I beleive probably enlisted because they believed in the role of the military as a protector...that is honourable. I have many friends in Canada that enlisted in the Canadian Military, although some question that it is a military anymore, as a way to get a University Education, a trade, or simply because they had no other alternative job. Some of those who I graduated highschool with went to Rwanda and Kosovo and other areas after they had enlisted for the above reasons. At the first chance, the got out and one friend in particular, Jeff, who had been in Rwanda, was really f@*ked up after. Why? Because he enlisted for the wrong reasons.
I was a little sarcastic in my comments about homeless people and so on, but I really believe, through observation and personal experience that the vast majority of Militaries everywhere do not have mush choice about what to do to make money.
If you had ever been to South Korea, the home of the largest congregation of "Christians" in the world, you would be able to see that it is not a minority of Christians that are a bit loopy! Getting dismissed from your job because you are Buddhist and your contact with Christian children will send them to hell, being accosted on the subway and told you are going to hell because you "follow Buddha", these are everyday occurrences here.
And I again refer to my contention that those who follow the teachings of Jesus are not included in that. Maybe some of them call themselves Christians, but the organized gang that runs Christianity Inc. is not, in my opinion, a noble group.
Joan Chittister is top notch. This column on trying children as adults is a gem. Prison rape is a horrible blot on this society. I am not sanguine about sucessfully treating children and releasing them, but I don't want us to just give up either.
God Bless your agnostic soul! (I swing from believer through agnostic to atheist and back. It's been the despair of Mrs. Wince my Dad, and my Mom.)
Here is an anti-war column. I don't agree that all her facts are factual or that all her conclusions are logical. They come close, though. And it is gently written.
The only thing I was "indignant" about was SMA's "spit in his own mother's face" comment. And if you think that's "OK" and "just politics" and "shit happens when you're a celebrity," then well, to use the phrase that so enraged Dean (not that that's hard), it's nice to know the playing field.
I never said anyone was innocent. But we're talking about Cindy Sheehan here, not Condi Rice. Or Bill Clinton. Or John Kerry. Or Max Cleland. (You wrote the post, remember?) And the right's rhetoric about her has been deplorable. Simple as that.
Now I'm going to go destroy some Republicans. I love warming my hands over their bleeding bodies as they lie at my fascist racist feet. One more head on the pike!
Oh, and SMA? Too bad Casey Sheehan isn't alive to spit in his mother's face, huh? But the President sent him to bring democracy to Iraq, and he's not around to do that. Shame. It would have made a hell of a show.
"Tonight on FOX: War hero spits in his traitorous mother's face! Sean Hannity has the exclusive interview!"
Ratings through the roof, people. Through the roof.
Of all the despicable things that Sheehan bashers like SMA do, predicting Casey Sheehan's reaction is the worst. Although I must admit, "would have spat in his own mother's face" has, as they say, a certain style.
Yes, the only person with the moral authority to give voice to the dead is Cindy Sheehan.
By the way, did you know we invaded Iraq for the neocons and the Jooooos?
Yes, it's true that the US tries to repay her military with a decent incentive to enlist and re-enlist and to offer educational opportunities to young men and women. Their sacrifices and personal risk deserve more but still, they are young and many of them idealistic in their desire to serve. If they were paid a dollar a day (pre-WWII enlisted pay) would the world, especially justme, admire the US more?
And yes, it's not always easy to find a job when you are 18 and just out of school. Every society must train their young adults to be useful. Some enter the military. Some work menial civilian jobs while they continue their education or start factory work at the bottom of the pay scale. I did exactly that. I took a low-paying job like almost every young person I knew and worked my way up the ladder. Others do it here in America every year. Some stay in the military and work their way up the ladder too. Others do their four years and come home, go to work, go to school, go do whatever and try to succeed. Please don't refer to our military personnel as losers who can't get a civilian job. They are doing what all young people do...finding their way into maturity and adult responsibilities.
Justme posted a bigoted and mean-spirited comment. Shame on you.
jane m- good point. Many people have gone through college because of their service in our military. Personally, I think the bonus is the least we can do for them. It is a pitance of their worth as far as i am concerned.
adam it seems that the right isn't the only one quoting dead people
"Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan is now purportedly "channeling" her slain son, Casey, from heaven, suggesting he's calling President Bush "an idiot," and she claims to have "tens of thousands of angels" supporting her cause to bring home immediately American troops serving in Iraq."
I am really sorry you were offended by my mean-spirited post! What you failed to realize is that I didn't say all of them were losers...
Look, if you guys want to focus on one part of what I say, go ahead. If you want to look at the reality of the situation, then don't just stop reading when your mind gets hooked on a couple of words. Maybe they just send the dumb ones to Korea, I don't know. But I have met a couple of decent guys here in the American military as well. Actually, in June, two were at my birthday party. One is the boyfriend of a teacher I know here. I have a great deal of respect for people who do any job with a sense of the gravity of what they are doing. But don't go and say that all people, or anyone, even a POTUS is worthy of respect, just because of their position. And if someone dies in action, well, don't automatically assume that their last words weren't "This was a poor career choice, now, wasn't it!?" Lots of people join the military for the benefits, not the "honour" of serving their country.
Steven Malcolm Anderson 4 GodsSelfSex (mail) (www):
"And if someone dies in action, well, don't automatically assume that their last words weren't "This was a poor career choice, now, wasn't it!?" Lots of people join the military for the benefits, not the "honour" of serving their country."
I am really offended by Justme's comment. I have served in the military, my husband is retired from the Army and still does 'army stuff' as a consultant and we live in an Army town.
I do not know one soldier - of any rank - who joined the Army because he or she could not find a job elsewhere. How dare you suggest that these good people would be homeless, you asshat!
Many of us feel that we owe our country something for the freedoms we have - others just feel that only they should be able to exercise those freedoms - and anyone who disagrees is someone to put down, be rude to, or otherwise mock as unworthy.
Justme, you are not worthy to comment on Rosemary's blog. But she is kind enough to allow you to do so.
And, not only are you anti military, you are an anti-Catholic bigot, also.
I won't be kind and suggest you are only ignorant. You are an idiot.
I can't say that I am at all surprised by the anti-military comments from Justme. He's your basic socialist lefty and it is just easier to believe that people are losers or desperate than believe that they actually love their country. Hard for them to believe in honor and love of country because they don't. They figure that the country owes them not the other way around.
I'm glad the lefties comment here, it reinforces the rightness of my beliefs and keeps me strong and willing to fight for my country the only way I can, with my blog.
I will say that a slight majority of Soldiers enlist in the military for personal reasons - mostly financial. Some don't even know why they enlist - seriously. Only a few enlist for noble reasons like patriotism, duty to country, you know, the whole "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." There are a few of us that recognize that the community is greater than the individual, and although most conservatives are strongly behind the military, they hate it when that opinion is brought up. let me tell you this, when you're in the military, you must immediately recognize that there is no room for individualism. It is the collective team, squad, platoon that matters. I was a conservative before I joined the Army 15 years ago, but being in the military all these years has taught me differently. And when I leave the military, I won't just turn off that philosophy. It's an ideology that is pragmatic and rewarding.
Steven Malcolm Anderson 4 GodsSelfSex (mail) (www):
"I see many soldiers: would that I saw many warriors. 'Uniform' one calls what they wear: would that what it conceals were not uniform!"
-Friedrich Nietzsche, "On War and Warriors", Thus Spake Zarathustra
Tim, it is obvious to me that you are a reasonable and hoourable individual. As I keep saying over and over again...not all people join the Military out of desperation, and not all of them would be homeless...
"Hard for them to believe in honor and love of country because they don't."
Man, it is hard to believe that people can pick and choose what they want to hear and then turn back to the same bullshiot labelling that righties or consrvatives or whatever you close-mionded people want to call yourselves. This is what I keep saying the difference is between those who are conservative and liberal. Liberals should be open to criticism and accept that they can be wrong. Conservatives, by definition are always right and do not accept that there are possibilities outside their own views.
I am not looking to insult or defile anyone who joins and serves their country because they have honourable intentions. But if you are too stupid to see that some people do things only for money...then I don't know what to say.
"Hard for them to believe in honor and love of country because they don't."
I will be honest Rosemary, I don't love or hate any country any more or less than the next. I believe in equanimity, and though I get sucked into this type of childish name-calling sometimes, I think it is more honourable to seek out peace through compromise and compassion. So if you ask me whether I would ever serve in a Military under any circumstance, I would say no. Why? Because I do not believe in violence of any kind. The freedom of choice is a basic value that allows all people to make choices based on their own principles and it also presupposes that you understand the consequences of your choices. I choose to question why people do things and I accept that some people who have tunnel vision to respond with illogical responses...it is the price you pay for putting yourself out there.
"I do not know one soldier - of any rank - who joined the Army because he or she could not find a job elsewhere. How dare you suggest that these good people would be homeless, you asshat!"
Sorry Beth, but it appears you are the "asshat' because you cannot read everything I wrote. What a joke some of you people are, whining because someone dares to question anything that has to do with you. COngratulations, you served in the Military. I am sure you did a wonderful job. I am glad you did something you felt you had to do. Now go back and pull the quote where I say that all military people are losers and homeless unemployed people.
Actually I said..."I'm not anti-military, people of limited means, those poor unemployed, otherwise homeless vagrants who would be begging for change and trying to force your windshiled clean should enlist in the Military, it is a more noble cause"
"I live in a country that currenlty has 35,000 US TRoops stationed here. I see them all the time...and Ihave to say, they probably have no other job options in the world. They are not the "sharpest knives in the drawer" and it becomes very evident by their behaviour that they probably enjoy killing and all the ramifications of war. I have heard US GI's comment that life would be a lot more exciting here in Korea if "we just fucking slaughtered those commies." I admit that some people still join the military because they are brave, but most join because they would have a job otherwise."
What part of your opinion quoted above have we misconstrued in our responses? Clearly ya' can dish it out but ya' can't take it. You've been backtracking ever since you got called on it. Your meaning is clear. We know what you think. Now you know what we think in response. What is so hard about that? You are more closed minded than you will ever know. Poor twit.
Steven Malcolm Anderson 4 GodsSelfSex (mail) (www):
Justme wrote:
"But if you are too stupid to see that some people do things only for money...then I don't know what to say."
Some people do things only for money. They're called financiers (the Third Estate), not soldiers or warriors (the Second Estate) or priests (the First Estate).
"Liberals should be open to criticism and accept that they can be wrong."
That describes Liberals as I have often known them, Dean Esmay being one such. Too much of that, however, can lead to relativism.
"Conservatives, by definition are always right and do not accept that there are possibilities outside their own views.
True, about me anyway. We Conservatives adhere to certain absolutes. My absolutes are: Polytheistic Godliness, Selfishness, Sexiness, and, proceeding from these, the West and the mightiest nation of the West, the United States of America. I am not always right, but when I am I know in my heart that I am Extremely Right.
I LOVE your Blog Rosemary. I know I've spoken out of turn and have shot off my big Leftie mouth ocassionally, but I really love it! And I must tell you....I really love this post.
I just need to say something about the military to some of your posters. As I've said before, I come from a military family. And by that, I mean, my Brother, my Father, and both my Grandfathers, as well as 3 cousins (now in Iraq) and an Uncle. Again: I Come From A Military Family.
I know the military.
I know the people.
This isn't something I've read about or heard or pontificate about, I've lived this life, and with these people, since the day I was born.
So you can IMAGINE what it was like for my Democratic hiney to grow up in the household I grew up in. Luckily, I had a step Dad, a Dad, and a Mom who always supported free speech and free thinking in our family. My Grandpa.....umm...not so much. :-)
So, having said all that (and trying not to sound like the Military Know It All) from the amount of experience I've had, soldiers are NOT drunken, whore mongers. They are also not ALL highly educated. They are, from my 43 years of experience, a thin line that walks between those things. I know it's something EITHER side doesn't want to hear, but that's the truth. There are soldiers (women included) who joined the military to literally get an education. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. And...there are soldiers who joined because they have anger problems and like to kill things. Also- a fact. And, there are those who joined because they have an immense sense of duty and patriotism. ALL of those people are in my family. I'm not kiddng.
I think we need to remember there are good and bad people all over the place. They don't only join the military and they don't only join the priesthood. I know some wonderful priests who believe in their Calling and are good, good freinds. But that's not everyone. I think it's unfair to make asssumptions either way.
I don't like the war. I don't like the fighting. I like Cindy Sheehan, and I support her right to say what she has to say (just like, I think most everyone on your blog does). But I think we should stay away from labeling the military. Think of it this way: some of the grunts who enlisted before 9/11 did so for an education, and then got sucked into a horriffic, unpopular war. I think instead of insulting them, we need to keep up their spirits and pray for an ending.
Steven Malcolm Anderson 4 GodsSelfSex (mail) (www):
By the way: The first sentence of this post sounded like one of Leonard Peikoff's famous tie-in contests back when he had his radio show in the late 1990s. I have tapes of that show. His style!
I've a strong preference for defending our rights to someone else's death, myself, rather than my own. I suggest you adopt the same attitude. You know, along the lines Patton suggested about making the other poor sap die for his country. An example slogan:
"You may take my gun, after which I will pry it from your cold dead fingers."
Except that sounds several orders of magnitude more macho than I actually am. I have a danger avoidance mechanism so pronounced that I have only seen streetwalkers twice. So let's just hound them out of office. Speaking of which, why are McCain and Feingold still Senators?
jane m..."What part of your opinion quoted above have we misconstrued in our responses?"
It is not so much misconstruing. What a lot of people on both sides of this libera/conservative foolishness do is to take a piece of what someone has said, focus on it and then basically get into a name-calling match. I am not back paddling, I am merely expounding upon my thoughts, to make them a little more clear.
If you want to think I am insulting all of the military, then I think that is a problem. If you cannot see that "I think we need to remember there are good and bad people all over the place," as Alex said, well, life must be rough for you.
I am not an authority on the military, and I haven't met all of them. But I spent several years living in Fredericton, NB, near Camp Gagetown, a large Military base. My experience with these people, and these are Canadian guys, was that they have quite an attitude that frequently resulted in lots of altercations. I am 6'3", 225lbs, and if I am standing in a bar in Fredericton on a Thursday night, there is a better than even chance that some drunk military guy, often smaller than me, will bump into me and then began scrapping overtures. Or, in Pyeontaek, South Korea, walking into a perfume shop with my girlfriend and hearing soldiers laughing as they tell the girl at the counter who is crying by now, that she is "a miserable gook bitch and I ain't comin' in here no more!"
So, I will apologize. I have not been around a military family, no one in my living family was ever in the military. So I defer to Alex on this, and I will just say that I have had the misfortune to meet some assholes from that sector of society.
As a lefty-communist-peacnik-Buddhist, I accept that I should not have been so harsh with my words. I will back-paddle quickly...
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
I don't want Cindy to stop. I want her to keep on.
She put herself out there and as free as she is to speak, so are we.
I think it's safe to say that we travel in somewhat different circles. :-) And of course, everyone's free to savage Cindy Sheehan as much as they please. I've never said differently, and I never will. I'm just pointing out the right's curious *need* to savage her.
Rosemary:
Be honest - if it wasn't Israel, it would be something else. (Her divorce papers, perhaps?) She is speaking out against the war and against the President, so she must be destroyed. There is no person - NO person - who spoke out forcefully against this war who would be respected and "left alone" by the right. Paul Hackett becomes a "staff puke," and on and on and on. The thing is, as I've said over and over, the more the right attacks her, the more powerful she becomes as a symbol. The President and his surrogates made Cindy Sheehan what she is today.
It's like Flint, Michigan with the Money Magazine story that put them at 300 out of 300 cities. It would have been much better for them to just ignore the story. But instead, they made a huge stink about it, thereby exposing lots more people to the wonderland that was Flint, and making themselves seem petty. "Look! She's getting divorced!" has the same desperate feel.
...And the events she set in motion may be bigger than you or I can imagine today.
Be honest - if it wasn't Israel, it would be something else. (Her divorce papers, perhaps?)
You think what she said about Israel is equivalent to someone releasing the fact that she is getting divorced? Gimme a flipping break. She is a celebrity now and celebrities have their divorces made public. Shit happens.
She is speaking out against the war and against the President, so she must be destroyed. There is no person - NO person - who spoke out forcefully against this war who would be respected and "left alone" by the right.
Left alone? You have apparantly missed the point of my post. You are free to speak and say what you wish but you are not entitled to be left alone. We all have the same rights and if you want to stand on your soapbox and declare George Bush a terrorist and is Israel the root of all evil, I have a right to say you're wrong. I also have a right to say your words are fascist supporting, nazi-like and sheer idiocy. You don't have a right to escape scruity and neither does anyone that speaks publically.
Paul Hackett becomes a "staff puke," and on and on and on. The thing is, as I've said over and over, the more the right attacks her, the more powerful she becomes as a symbol. The President and his surrogates made Cindy Sheehan what she is today.
I don't know who Paul Hackett is so whatever. The media has made Cindy Sheehan what she is today, they obviously ran out of missing white girls.
You want honesty? Here is a little for you: This is politics. The Democrats aren't innocent angels in the game and the Republicans aren't the source of all evil. You're angry when your side takes a hit and that is natural but you also seem to be oblivious to the hits coming from your side. You believe your own hype and that is dangerous. Lots of good people have been destroyed by the Democrats for the simple crime of being conservative or being chosen by a Republican President.
It is pathetically whiny and hypocritical to hear you liberals cry about your heroes/spokesmen being bashed when your own weapons of destruction are still warming your hands and prominent Republicans are left bleeding on the floor at your feet.
(Paul Hackett? Google.)
I believe Bush got 72% there last nov. and the incumbant was originallt forecast to get roughly the same. A blogroots donation campagin was set up and the incumbant got 52% this time around. (close but not good enough.)
The right savaged him, e.g. Limbaugh said he "only went to Iraq to pad his resume". On the other hand he was very vocal on attacking Bush. (I think he called him a chicken hawk and a few other things.)
I don't like Cindy Sheehan because she is famous for saying nasty, untrue things about me and people I admire. I know she believes they are true. But they are false. I know she believes they are fair. But they are nasty. I'm willing to cut her some slack because of her grief. But not enough to fail to point out that she is saying nasty, untrue things, although I would normally prefer the phrase "absurd allegations". In this case I think the more direct language is helpful.
It's pretty simple, really. I know that you don't like certain people who, though not famous, say things about you and people you admire which you believe are nasty and untrue. I can respect that. I might even agree with you about the nastiness and the falsehood on occasion. And on other occasions I might not.
And I'm sure I've said things which are nasty and untrue about people myself. I try to avoid it, but it ususally slips out while watching the news. Mrs. Wince often chastises me for it, since she thinks it sets a bad example for the kids. Mrs. Wince, as usual, is right.
Any thoughts about the anti-war Code Pink protests outside Walter Reed Hospital, where the protesters harass the wounded soldiers and their families?
Utterly classless, I say. It reminds me of Fred Phelps leading protests at people's funerals who die of AIDS. I really wish Reverend Phelps would convert to Christianity and begin serving the community as the pastor of a church.
Yours,
Wince
I appreciate your bringing this thread back to reality, and sanity. As I've said again and again, I don't begrudge anyone's freedom to say whatever they want about Cindy Sheehan. I'm not "crying" about that at all - it's expected. I was just trying to make the point that no matter who the person is, no matter what their background or their past statements, if they are against this war or this President in any way, the current thinking is that they must be destroyed utterly. No anti-Iraq war comment must be allowed to stand, ever.
Any person can be smeared - there's always something. And there's no spokesperson who couldn't be made out to be a devil by Fox, Michelle Malkin, LGF, etc. But it's just a distraction from the main point: more and more people are realizing that this war was a mistake.
Even more importantly, from a PR standpoint, savaging a woman who to a lot of people is sympathetic (yes, because of her son) just isn't smart. I don't know why the right doesn't get that. LGF has five posts on its front page alone right now about her, each with hundreds of comments.
People like Dean are always saying there are ways for people to criticize this war and this President without earning his undying wrath as fascist racist Nazi-lovers. But he's never found an example. Strange, huh? So I guess we're going to have to decide for ourselves what's appropriate, without his guidance.
As for the protesters, I don't think a hospital is a proper place for a protest like that. And if anyone is being "harassed," then that should stop. But comparing them to Phelps is outrageous. Phelps believes the people at the funerals he pickets deserved their fate, and will burn in Hell for it; Code Pink believes the wounded shouldn't have been wounded in the first place. Subtle difference, I know. :-)
"Colorful and interesting"? Well, I must confess that I have come to find Rev. Fred Phelps so perfect a foe that I find it impossible to hate him. Wince, that was excellent: "I really wish [he] would convert to Christianity...."
As for others, Pat Buchanan still does have a certain style, but it's been many years since I've taken even a morbid interest in the ideas of David Duke, William Pierce, George Lincoln Rockwell, Arthur Butz, or the rest of that ilk. Heard one Jew-hater attack "Zionist imperialism", you've heard them all. That stuff was stale in the days of Father Coughlin and Gerald Winrod. It was stale when they wrote the "Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion". It was stale when they first invented the "well-poisoners" lie, the Blood Libel, and the "Christ-killer" lie. It is the Nazis who are the Christ-killers.
Thank you.
Any person can be smeared
Have you connected the dots on everything I said? Cindy Sheehan is smearing people. That's what nasty, untrue means, although it is an even harsher way to say it. Is that smart for the anti-war side?
I had the same viseral reaction to the Walter Reed protestors that I have to Fred Phelps. My emotions, the deep down part of my soul, say they are the same. I don't like the anti-war crowd in this country. They have history with me, and it is an ugly history. I don't like their methods. I don't like their thinking. I don't like their allies and I don't like their results. The worst ones are hateful bigots like Fred Phelps. They are anti-military bigots. I love the military. I admire the military. I appreciate the sacrifices of the military. Anti-military bigots, especially the condescending ones who claim they are only doing what's best for the soldiers, make my blood boil. And there are plenty of unconscious anti-military bigots out there too, Adam.
I have a problem with bigots, Adam. And that's reality, too.
Did you know that Fred Phelps is anti-war? But he says 9/11 was just punishment for a nation of insert-hateful-word-that-means-cigarettes-in-Britain-here. And he leads protests at military funerals.
Perhaps some of the reaction to Cindy Sheehan is reflexive hatred of anti-military bigots. 'Cause one you realize that many of the anti-war folks are anti-military bigots they all start to look like that, even when they aren't bigotted at all.
OTOH, I do like the Christian anti-war folks much better. Nuns especially. They pray. They have candlelight vigils. They are kind. They don't accuse. They say things like "I'm glad Saddam Hussien isn't in power" and "I'm sad for all the boys who won't come home". They sing, "Give Peace a chance". Deeply religious people, approaching the war from a deeply religious perspective, are very easy for me to tolerate. They are the exception, not the rule.
Maybe you can be my first tolerable anti-war atheist. Can you act like a nun? :)
Yours,
Wince
Yours,
Wince
sorry, off topic...Phelps should convert to a plant. As a pastor he wold probably do what pastors do best...lie and bugger little ones.
I can only aspire to be your first tolerable anti-war atheist. (Although I would call myself an agnostic. Could I *be* any more of a pussy? :-)
It's funny you mention nuns, because closer to the start of the war, I remember well attending a talk by Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun who has been outspokenly anti-war. Fascinating woman - forceful and smart and passionate.
As for Fred Phelps: if you want to equate him with anti-war protestors, I can't stop you. I understand your emotions, even though I think the difference is clear. But have you seen anti-Iraq-war protestors (other than Phelps) attacking or smearing soldiers, as they did in the Vietnam era? I would say now that I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and women in our military, but I doubt most of the people here would believe me. Especially because the prevailing attitude is, if you're against this war, you're automatically a traitor and helping the Islamofascists kill more U.S. soldiers. So I won't even try.
I've read about anti-war protestors smearing troops in some of the protests. And, yes, they still use the baby-killer tag. But so far, this has been rare.
justme,
And an anti-Christian bigot, too! When do we hear the racial and ethnic slurs?
Yours,
Wince
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
This is the type of thing that stirs ant-conservatism...when people like you just bound in on your name-calling horse and drop your dirt. Is it not fair to question why people do things like join the Military? Anyone who calls troops "baby-killers" is an idiot and is pushing the envelope of free speech. They are no better than Phelps.
And yes, I have had some nasty experiences with Christianity; I am from a province in Canada where Catholic Priests and Nuns, United Chruch Ministers and those of the cloth of all sects of Christianity have been abusing boys, girls and native people for years. I apologize, I should distinguish betweens Christians and those who actually follow the example of Jesus, whatever they call themselves.
I don't see where you would have fallen outside that definition, based on the material you had presented at the time. I have to smile though. What made you think I would write what I wrote, then read what you wrote, and then not call you a bigot? Cause either you are a bigot, or you are utterly tactless. Try posting a comment which isn't stream of insults.
tactless: Lacking or exhibiting a lack of tact; bluntly inconsiderate or indiscreet.
Given your characterization of our troops as ignorant, stupid, bloodthirsty, whoring drunks who couldn't hold down a normal job, I'm voting for bigot. My Dad, the chemical engineer with a law degree served in Germany. One of my best friends, the software project manager with a degree in IS, served in Korea, among other places. My cousin the pilot served in the Air Force, as did my uncle - all over the world.
If you want to live down the tag, try saying some kind words that show you care and understand. Like this: Oh, that was you. Maybe there's hope. Hey, and look at this: Of course that was after you stereotyped from the actions of a tiny minority of Christian ministers to smear them all. You know, stereotyping, generalizing from a few bad examples to the larger group. Something bigots do.
I mean, really, justme. How the heck do you expect me to respond to what you wrote?
Yours,
Wince
I guess that you don't know that the word "you" can be used as a plural and not actually mean you personally.
The "you" that I was using was meant in the broader sense. You, Adam, are still missing my point. Both sides engage in character assassination all the time. While you and yours are bemoaning what is happening to your compatriots you are ignoring the fact that you and yours are doing the same to mine and Pam's and Wince's and Steven's and Dean's...
Of course, I was being hyperbolic but my point still stands. Just think for a moment what has been said about John Robert's in the past week. Or Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney during the last 5 years.
Your indignation is as laughable as John Kerry's campaign. It's a joke.
I was a little sarcastic in my comments about homeless people and so on, but I really believe, through observation and personal experience that the vast majority of Militaries everywhere do not have mush choice about what to do to make money.
If you had ever been to South Korea, the home of the largest congregation of "Christians" in the world, you would be able to see that it is not a minority of Christians that are a bit loopy! Getting dismissed from your job because you are Buddhist and your contact with Christian children will send them to hell, being accosted on the subway and told you are going to hell because you "follow Buddha", these are everyday occurrences here.
And I again refer to my contention that those who follow the teachings of Jesus are not included in that. Maybe some of them call themselves Christians, but the organized gang that runs Christianity Inc. is not, in my opinion, a noble group.
Joan Chittister is top notch. This column on trying children as adults is a gem. Prison rape is a horrible blot on this society. I am not sanguine about sucessfully treating children and releasing them, but I don't want us to just give up either.
God Bless your agnostic soul! (I swing from believer through agnostic to atheist and back. It's been the despair of Mrs. Wince my Dad, and my Mom.)
Here is an anti-war column. I don't agree that all her facts are factual or that all her conclusions are logical. They come close, though. And it is gently written.
Yours,
Wince
The only thing I was "indignant" about was SMA's "spit in his own mother's face" comment. And if you think that's "OK" and "just politics" and "shit happens when you're a celebrity," then well, to use the phrase that so enraged Dean (not that that's hard), it's nice to know the playing field.
I never said anyone was innocent. But we're talking about Cindy Sheehan here, not Condi Rice. Or Bill Clinton. Or John Kerry. Or Max Cleland. (You wrote the post, remember?) And the right's rhetoric about her has been deplorable. Simple as that.
Now I'm going to go destroy some Republicans. I love warming my hands over their bleeding bodies as they lie at my fascist racist feet. One more head on the pike!
"Tonight on FOX: War hero spits in his traitorous mother's face! Sean Hannity has the exclusive interview!"
Ratings through the roof, people. Through the roof.
Yes, the only person with the moral authority to give voice to the dead is Cindy Sheehan.
By the way, did you know we invaded Iraq for the neocons and the Jooooos?
I was shocked. This changes everything.
Yes, it's true that the US tries to repay her military with a decent incentive to enlist and re-enlist and to offer educational opportunities to young men and women. Their sacrifices and personal risk deserve more but still, they are young and many of them idealistic in their desire to serve. If they were paid a dollar a day (pre-WWII enlisted pay) would the world, especially justme, admire the US more?
And yes, it's not always easy to find a job when you are 18 and just out of school. Every society must train their young adults to be useful. Some enter the military. Some work menial civilian jobs while they continue their education or start factory work at the bottom of the pay scale. I did exactly that. I took a low-paying job like almost every young person I knew and worked my way up the ladder. Others do it here in America every year. Some stay in the military and work their way up the ladder too. Others do their four years and come home, go to work, go to school, go do whatever and try to succeed. Please don't refer to our military personnel as losers who can't get a civilian job. They are doing what all young people do...finding their way into maturity and adult responsibilities.
Justme posted a bigoted and mean-spirited comment. Shame on you.
"Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan is now purportedly "channeling" her slain son, Casey, from heaven, suggesting he's calling President Bush "an idiot," and she claims to have "tens of thousands of angels" supporting her cause to bring home immediately American troops serving in Iraq."
I am really sorry you were offended by my mean-spirited post! What you failed to realize is that I didn't say all of them were losers...
Look, if you guys want to focus on one part of what I say, go ahead. If you want to look at the reality of the situation, then don't just stop reading when your mind gets hooked on a couple of words. Maybe they just send the dumb ones to Korea, I don't know. But I have met a couple of decent guys here in the American military as well. Actually, in June, two were at my birthday party. One is the boyfriend of a teacher I know here. I have a great deal of respect for people who do any job with a sense of the gravity of what they are doing. But don't go and say that all people, or anyone, even a POTUS is worthy of respect, just because of their position. And if someone dies in action, well, don't automatically assume that their last words weren't "This was a poor career choice, now, wasn't it!?" Lots of people join the military for the benefits, not the "honour" of serving their country.
Speak for yourself.
I do not know one soldier - of any rank - who joined the Army because he or she could not find a job elsewhere. How dare you suggest that these good people would be homeless, you asshat!
Many of us feel that we owe our country something for the freedoms we have - others just feel that only they should be able to exercise those freedoms - and anyone who disagrees is someone to put down, be rude to, or otherwise mock as unworthy.
Justme, you are not worthy to comment on Rosemary's blog. But she is kind enough to allow you to do so.
And, not only are you anti military, you are an anti-Catholic bigot, also.
I won't be kind and suggest you are only ignorant. You are an idiot.
I'm glad the lefties comment here, it reinforces the rightness of my beliefs and keeps me strong and willing to fight for my country the only way I can, with my blog.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, "On War and Warriors", Thus Spake Zarathustra
"Hard for them to believe in honor and love of country because they don't."
Man, it is hard to believe that people can pick and choose what they want to hear and then turn back to the same bullshiot labelling that righties or consrvatives or whatever you close-mionded people want to call yourselves. This is what I keep saying the difference is between those who are conservative and liberal. Liberals should be open to criticism and accept that they can be wrong. Conservatives, by definition are always right and do not accept that there are possibilities outside their own views.
I am not looking to insult or defile anyone who joins and serves their country because they have honourable intentions. But if you are too stupid to see that some people do things only for money...then I don't know what to say.
"Hard for them to believe in honor and love of country because they don't."
I will be honest Rosemary, I don't love or hate any country any more or less than the next. I believe in equanimity, and though I get sucked into this type of childish name-calling sometimes, I think it is more honourable to seek out peace through compromise and compassion. So if you ask me whether I would ever serve in a Military under any circumstance, I would say no. Why? Because I do not believe in violence of any kind. The freedom of choice is a basic value that allows all people to make choices based on their own principles and it also presupposes that you understand the consequences of your choices. I choose to question why people do things and I accept that some people who have tunnel vision to respond with illogical responses...it is the price you pay for putting yourself out there.
"I do not know one soldier - of any rank - who joined the Army because he or she could not find a job elsewhere. How dare you suggest that these good people would be homeless, you asshat!"
Sorry Beth, but it appears you are the "asshat' because you cannot read everything I wrote. What a joke some of you people are, whining because someone dares to question anything that has to do with you. COngratulations, you served in the Military. I am sure you did a wonderful job. I am glad you did something you felt you had to do. Now go back and pull the quote where I say that all military people are losers and homeless unemployed people.
Actually I said..."I'm not anti-military, people of limited means, those poor unemployed, otherwise homeless vagrants who would be begging for change and trying to force your windshiled clean should enlist in the Military, it is a more noble cause"
"I live in a country that currenlty has 35,000 US TRoops stationed here. I see them all the time...and Ihave to say, they probably have no other job options in the world. They are not the "sharpest knives in the drawer" and it becomes very evident by their behaviour that they probably enjoy killing and all the ramifications of war. I have heard US GI's comment that life would be a lot more exciting here in Korea if "we just fucking slaughtered those commies." I admit that some people still join the military because they are brave, but most join because they would have a job otherwise."
What part of your opinion quoted above have we misconstrued in our responses? Clearly ya' can dish it out but ya' can't take it. You've been backtracking ever since you got called on it. Your meaning is clear. We know what you think. Now you know what we think in response. What is so hard about that? You are more closed minded than you will ever know. Poor twit.
- When given the outside views, from the left, one can't blame us.
"But if you are too stupid to see that some people do things only for money...then I don't know what to say."
Some people do things only for money. They're called financiers (the Third Estate), not soldiers or warriors (the Second Estate) or priests (the First Estate).
"Liberals should be open to criticism and accept that they can be wrong."
That describes Liberals as I have often known them, Dean Esmay being one such. Too much of that, however, can lead to relativism.
"Conservatives, by definition are always right and do not accept that there are possibilities outside their own views.
True, about me anyway. We Conservatives adhere to certain absolutes. My absolutes are: Polytheistic Godliness, Selfishness, Sexiness, and, proceeding from these, the West and the mightiest nation of the West, the United States of America. I am not always right, but when I am I know in my heart that I am Extremely Right.
I just need to say something about the military to some of your posters. As I've said before, I come from a military family. And by that, I mean, my Brother, my Father, and both my Grandfathers, as well as 3 cousins (now in Iraq) and an Uncle. Again: I Come From A Military Family.
I know the military.
I know the people.
This isn't something I've read about or heard or pontificate about, I've lived this life, and with these people, since the day I was born.
So you can IMAGINE what it was like for my Democratic hiney to grow up in the household I grew up in. Luckily, I had a step Dad, a Dad, and a Mom who always supported free speech and free thinking in our family. My Grandpa.....umm...not so much. :-)
So, having said all that (and trying not to sound like the Military Know It All) from the amount of experience I've had, soldiers are NOT drunken, whore mongers. They are also not ALL highly educated. They are, from my 43 years of experience, a thin line that walks between those things. I know it's something EITHER side doesn't want to hear, but that's the truth. There are soldiers (women included) who joined the military to literally get an education. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. And...there are soldiers who joined because they have anger problems and like to kill things. Also- a fact. And, there are those who joined because they have an immense sense of duty and patriotism. ALL of those people are in my family. I'm not kiddng.
I think we need to remember there are good and bad people all over the place. They don't only join the military and they don't only join the priesthood. I know some wonderful priests who believe in their Calling and are good, good freinds. But that's not everyone. I think it's unfair to make asssumptions either way.
I don't like the war. I don't like the fighting. I like Cindy Sheehan, and I support her right to say what she has to say (just like, I think most everyone on your blog does). But I think we should stay away from labeling the military. Think of it this way: some of the grunts who enlisted before 9/11 did so for an education, and then got sucked into a horriffic, unpopular war. I think instead of insulting them, we need to keep up their spirits and pray for an ending.
But then, as my Grandpa would say to me:
"How on EARTH did you get into our family!"
PS
I loved my Grandpa. Seriously.
For instance, I think she needs a hairstylist.
But...that's just me.
:-)
"You may take my gun, after which I will pry it from your cold dead fingers."
Except that sounds several orders of magnitude more macho than I actually am. I have a danger avoidance mechanism so pronounced that I have only seen streetwalkers twice. So let's just hound them out of office. Speaking of which, why are McCain and Feingold still Senators?
Yours,
Wince
It is not so much misconstruing. What a lot of people on both sides of this libera/conservative foolishness do is to take a piece of what someone has said, focus on it and then basically get into a name-calling match. I am not back paddling, I am merely expounding upon my thoughts, to make them a little more clear.
If you want to think I am insulting all of the military, then I think that is a problem. If you cannot see that "I think we need to remember there are good and bad people all over the place," as Alex said, well, life must be rough for you.
I am not an authority on the military, and I haven't met all of them. But I spent several years living in Fredericton, NB, near Camp Gagetown, a large Military base. My experience with these people, and these are Canadian guys, was that they have quite an attitude that frequently resulted in lots of altercations. I am 6'3", 225lbs, and if I am standing in a bar in Fredericton on a Thursday night, there is a better than even chance that some drunk military guy, often smaller than me, will bump into me and then began scrapping overtures. Or, in Pyeontaek, South Korea, walking into a perfume shop with my girlfriend and hearing soldiers laughing as they tell the girl at the counter who is crying by now, that she is "a miserable gook bitch and I ain't comin' in here no more!"
So, I will apologize. I have not been around a military family, no one in my living family was ever in the military. So I defer to Alex on this, and I will just say that I have had the misfortune to meet some assholes from that sector of society.
As a lefty-communist-peacnik-Buddhist, I accept that I should not have been so harsh with my words. I will back-paddle quickly...