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I can't believe I have to write this post. I run this blog the way I do, with absolute freedom of speech because we all know what happens to forums that ban people for free expression.

(show)

Posted by Rosemary on 04.02.2008
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I do hope that I haven't insulted you in the past, Rose.

Well, not more than usual for this joint, at least.

As I've said in the past, I enjoy Mr. Wonderful. He's as funny as hell.
4.2.2008 3:06pm
Jerry K. :
Well. I'm out..

I'll leave you with the offensive remark.

TQL Wrote:

"If you really want to discuss Obama's ideas, try quoting or referencing what he says on his website or in his speeches ..."


TQL asked for an Obama quote and Mr. Wonderful replied:

Gladly!

"I bring a message of hope and change ... blah, blah, blah, blah, kill whitey, blah, blah, blah."
4.2.2008 11:58am


Notice the DOUBLE quotes around the ENTIRE statement. If he would have simply ended the quote AFTER the word "change" and continued with his ellipse and gave his interpretation of what he believed Obama to be saying, that would have been okay. But to have the hateful racist rhetoric included in a true quote made by Obama is wrong.

So as long as Mr. W is on the front page, I won't be.
4.2.2008 3:07pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Jerry:

I think any reasonable person in a reasonable frame of mind would know that I was not suggesting Barry made those remarks. I used quotes to distinguish MY parody of Barry's message from my thoughts. Again, anyone in a reasonable frame of mind would understand that, as many on here (some detractors included) clearly understood.

Not to mention the several "blah blah blahs" (quoting MYSELF here) that I included ... again, which should CLEARLY suggest that the "quote" was a PARODY.

Now, as far as you being "out of here" over something so stupid, well ... that's your choice.

Mr. Wonderful
4.2.2008 3:13pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Excuse me Jerry, I must apologize. You did not say you were "out of here," as I had mistakenly quoted you as saying.

A thousand pardons!

You simply said, "Well. I'm out ..." Although I do interpret the intention to be the same.
4.2.2008 3:20pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Jerry,

Don't let the door hit you!
4.2.2008 3:29pm
Jerry K. :
Your interpretations should be in single quotes ' ' as if you were paraphrasing.

You are also assuming that I have the time and the patience to read EVERY SINGLE FUCKING WORD you write. I don't. I have things to do. So I maybe get to read your tripe once every three to five days. Now if you were here for a few years perhaps your history would dictate that what you quoted was a PARODY. But you've only been here a short while. So the new reader who comes by today will see that you wrote "kill whitey", do you honestly expect them to do research on the site to determine if you were doing fucking PARODY?? This isn't MAD TV or SNL, its a political commentary blog..
4.2.2008 3:31pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
I think any reasonable person in a reasonable frame of mind would know that I was not suggesting Barry made those remarks.

Listen, pal, I only know you by what you write here. And your comment was entirely in line with your "shtick."

We smash a lot of furniture around here and you better be able to give as good as you get. But when you say stuff like that, you've crossed the line.

This is Rose's blog and she can run it any way she wants. Apparently, that means you can say whatever you want to say. And if I have to cross the street to avoid breathing the same air as you, then that's what I'll do.
4.2.2008 3:35pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
This isn't MAD TV or SNL, its a political commentary blog..

After seeing the crop of candidates we have to choose from, I'd say a MAD TV or SNL-inspired parody is very fitting, indeed.

And by the way, you didn't need to use two periods in the above sentence. Standard English language requires only one to signify the end of sentence.
4.2.2008 3:50pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
And if I have to cross the street to avoid breathing the same air as you, then that's what I'll do.

So would telling you to "go play in traffic", at this point, be redundant?
4.2.2008 3:52pm
IB Bill (mail):
I immediately thought it was parody, and was obviously so. I didn't find the satire even slightly racist.

But then again, I'm just a ign'ert conservative troglodyte. Gotta get back to my cave. (Exits, dragging knuckles behind him.)
4.2.2008 3:56pm
Jerry K. :
Did you know Hitler was a vegetarian and a painter? It doesn't really matter. He's mostly known for being a racist shit-head. A path you apparently are willing to follow.
4.2.2008 4:01pm
Jerry K. :
Bill,

This all traces back to SPoDE. He incorrectly attributed a phrase to someone and was called on it. He proceeded to BAN the guy who called him out. So they are just applying the same rules here. Parody or not "kill whitey" is a stupid fucking thing to say..

Jerry
4.2.2008 4:12pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Sorry, I was so busy eating my eggplant parmagiana and painting my next masterpiece that I didn't catch your last comment, Jerry.
4.2.2008 4:21pm
IB Bill (mail):
Jerry, thanks for the context.
4.2.2008 4:31pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
And by the way, you didn't need to use two periods in the above sentence. Standard English language requires only one to signify the end of sentence.

Wikipedia: There are no set rules or vocabulary for any putative "Standard English" because, unlike languages such as French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch or Danish, English does not have a governing body [...] to establish usage.

But they forgot Mr Wonderful's unblinking and tireless obsessing policing of the written word..
4.2.2008 4:38pm
IB Bill (mail):
True, ++UG; nonetheless, you don't put two periods at the end of a sentence. You can have one or four, or three if it's a clause that doesn't add up to a complete sentence. But not two.
4.2.2008 4:40pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
True, ++UG; nonetheless, you don't put two periods at the end of a sentence.

I do it all the time..
4.2.2008 4:44pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I mean, it seems perfectly acceptable with other sentence-ending punctuation!! Or am I wrong??
4.2.2008 4:45pm
IB Bill (mail):
OK, then, what does it signify?
4.2.2008 4:45pm
IB Bill (mail):
?? and !! are perfectly cromulent forms of punctuation. But if you're gonna .. you need to tell me (or someone else) what it means.
4.2.2008 4:48pm
cardeblu (mail):
This isn't MAD TV or SNL, its a political commentary blog..

It is?! Always?!?! Solely?!?!?!

That's certainly news to me, but then I've only been reading and occasionally commenting here over the past, what, 4 years now.

Hmmm.... I guess I must have missed something along the way.
4.2.2008 4:51pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
OK, then, what does it signify?

That I really really meant to finish that sentence.

Or perhaps Jerry made a slight error when typing his comment, and Mr Wonderful got a boner about it.
4.2.2008 4:59pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Double:

There are no set rules or vocabulary for any putative "Standard English" because, unlike languages such as French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch or Danish, English does not have a governing body [...] to establish usage.

Then wouldn't the same rule (or lack thereof) apply to Jerry and others' concerns regarding my quotation marks usuage? Or does a double standard exist for conservative, racist pigs such as yours truly?

Just wondering ...
4.2.2008 5:04pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I'm sorry, Mr. W, I wasn't able to understand your question..
4.2.2008 5:10pm
Frankie J (mail):
I'm only a couple of weeks older than Mr. Wonderful and probably the youngest person on this blog. I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring on this anyway.

As easily determined by the infamous "Franken-mizzy" thread...I don't particularly like Mr. Wonderful's point of view or comments on the topics that he's written about thus far.

They do get me writing on this blog, though.

Take a look at the topics that have comments by him and see how many responses come after. Since I've been on this blog, the two discussions that have gotten the most heated have involved him. I think that this is a good thing. I think that he's saying things that make us uncomfortable in an attempt to get us talking about them...at least that what I hope he's doing.

"Kill whitey" was pretty offensive to me, too...but why?

I've realized that for whatever reason it only offends be that he's saying these things because he's white...which I guess is reverse racism of a sort. If this were Dave Chappelle saying these things, I'd be laughing my ass off. Garrett Morris sang a song about "killing all the whities I see" thiry years ago. It's still shown as one of the all-time classic SNL skits.

Don't ban him, Rose...my young mind needs an arch nemesis to help prepare me for future debates on this or any other blog.
4.2.2008 5:22pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
you don't put two periods at the end of a sentence.


I can think of an example or two, like when you use an abbreviation, or a countdown like 3., 2., 1., etc..
4.2.2008 5:34pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Someone should have explained to ee cummings that he wasn't a good writer..
4.2.2008 6:02pm
IB Bill (mail):
You don't write cardinal numbers with periods after them, Mark. And you don't double period if a sentence ends in a period.

That doesn't mean you can't do that; there's no enforcement bureau. And there are circumstances, in creative writing, text-messaging or blogging/comments, for example, where you may do all sorts of aberrant/creative punctuation. But then you'd have to cue the reader what you mean, or make the meaning discernible some other way.
4.2.2008 6:13pm
Tim (mail):
So you plan on keeping Mr. Wonderful around so he can be the perfect assclown blogger? Oh, well, I'd prefer an Army of matoko's to one Mr. Wonderful.

Hey, do what you want, I just won't read anything he writes. However, for bringing up the whole punctuation issue, he should be banned for that alone.
4.2.2008 6:18pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
But then you'd have to cue the reader what you mean, or make the meaning discernible some other way.

Yes, because an extraneous period at the end of Jerry's comment rendered the entire thing to gibberish. If only we'd been cued as to what it meant.
4.2.2008 6:26pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Hey, do what you want, I just won't read anything he writes. However, for bringing up the whole punctuation issue, he should be banned for that alone.

If people are using FireFox, and don't mind installing the GreaseMonkey plugin, I can provide a script that makes Mr Wonderful's posts and comments vanish completely.

Anything to keep the peace. Of course, I won't be using it. I love Mr Wonderful.
4.2.2008 6:28pm
IB Bill (mail):
I'm not commenting on Mr. W.'s comment. Perhaps that wasn't clear. I was commenting on your more general point by quoting Wikipedia.

I don't care about someone's typos ...
4.2.2008 6:31pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I was commenting on your more general point by quoting Wikipedia.

Which was in response to Mr W's comment.
4.2.2008 6:38pm
shep (mail):
"So you plan on keeping Mr. Wonderful around so he can be the perfect assclown blogger?"

I was so hoping that someone would mention the irony of Rosemary defending the racist speech of and friendship with said assclown. I'd bet that even Barrack Obama wouldn't accuse Rosemary of guilt by association though he'd be well within his rights to do so. Me, I'll stick with rank hypocrisy but so what else is new.
4.2.2008 6:41pm
IB Bill (mail):
ok
4.2.2008 6:41pm
IB Bill (mail):
ok to double's comment, not shep's
4.2.2008 6:43pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Bill:
1. Yes you do.
2. I do it all the time.
3. My word processor will do it for me if set to outline mode.
4. What do you do about punctuation when you end a sentence with a winkie? ;-)? That always confuses.;-) (?) . ... ?
4.2.2008 11:51pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
I give up. I can't make heads or tails out of the greasemonkey tutorial.

DPU, send me that script. I think you have my email. You should anyway.
4.2.2008 11:58pm
Alicia Kondraciuk:
It was VERY obvious that Mr. Wonderful was using parody or satire when he attributed that quote to Obama. Everyone knows Obama would never say or imply such a thing.

We were simply seeing Mr. Wonderful stir the pot or bait the readers. Hell, I could tell when his tagling was Mr. Wonderful that the plans would be otherwise. Seriously, Jerry...don't get your panties in a bunch. That is so unlike you. ;)

Tim,

For the record, Jerry brought up punctuation first, with his diatribe on the proper use of quotes.
4.3.2008 9:39am
Jerry K. :
Alicia,

It was VERY obvious that Don Imus was using SATIRE when he called the women's basketball team what he did. Didn't help him much, now did it??

With parody and satire, there are lines that you just do NOT cross. Mr. Wonderbread crossed it.

The punctuation stuff was brought up because of this quote: (more context for IB Bill)

"We're led by evil liars and the only way Americans will wake up is if we fail and more soldiers die."

A few years back SPoDE attributed this "quote" as if it came from Michael Moore. It did not. It was something Dean made up, or more likely, paraphrased.

Mark Adams called him on it, and Dean banned him.

Anyone can see what Mr. Wonderful wrote was indeed parody, but if we are going to examine the Imuses of the world with a very strict microscope, Mr. Wonderful, Jerry, Rosemary, Tim, Arnold, Alicia, Kevin D, Dean, anyone who has posted on the Front Page of this blog or any other blog should be held to the same standards...........

Jerry
4.3.2008 10:24am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Alice, there's nothing fun or funny, provocative, interesting or redeeming about blatant race-baiting. Not even from a fictional persona whose script calls for being an insulting and insufferable boor.

It's still race-baiting.

And you are someone who I thought would appreciate that. It's serves no legitimate purpose. It's not parody, it's perpetuation of hate and making hate acceptable instead of trying to eliminate it.

It's wrong, Alice. It's wrong.

That anyone would want to associate themselves with such comments are beyond me. The real problem is that normal corrective remedies are unavailable against a cartoon creation with front page privileges. Can't shun him or shame him since the real guy is inoculated behind the character. The Character is purposely and rudely obtuse and unreasonable, so it can't be reasoned with. It's bad theater and a one-way dialog with no capacity for evolving, learning, correcting its bad manners. He's Rose's sole responsibility, her monster to restrain, her blogging community to wreck.

I'm not associating Rose with his comments, I know better. This isn't some meta-lesson on guilt by association. But since he was given a broad license for deliberately disgusting behavior by Rose, he remains her responsibility because he won't quit until and unless Rose decides the game has run it's course and requests he behave like a normal human instead of a parody of an obnoxious conservative bully.

It's a dishonest and distasteful game and really shouldn't be defended, Alice. Deliberate deceit serves no purpose, not really. "W" is not a real person, just a character being played by someone blogging with no consequences for his actions. After all, what does he care what happens here. It ain't his blog and it ain't his friends who will disappear or co-bloggers who quit.
4.3.2008 10:38am
Ara Rubyan (www):
It was VERY obvious that Mr. Wonderful was using parody or satire when he attributed that quote to Obama. Everyone knows Obama would never say or imply such a thing.

The phrase "kill whitey" when colliding in the same sentence as "Barack Obama" triggers an emotional response in most people: some (like me) are revulsed by it, while others (like "Mr. Wonderful") are titillated by it.

Your mileage may vary.

Whether or not Obama "would ever say such a thing" is completely irrelevant. And dragging Dave Chapelle or Don Imus into it is also irrelevant.

We were simply seeing Mr. Wonderful stir the pot or bait the readers.

We're simply watching a chimp fling feces at the walls of his cage. YOu dig that? Fine. I don't. And I'm blown away that this is what passes for "blogging" at Rose's site.

Didn't we get enough of that at SPoDE?

What is it with you Rose? One angry racist wasn't enough for you -- you have to join up with another one?
4.3.2008 10:43am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
I was so hoping that someone would mention the irony of Rosemary defending the racist speech of and friendship with said assclown. I'd bet that even Barrack Obama wouldn't accuse Rosemary of guilt by association though he'd be well within his rights to do so. Me, I'll stick with rank hypocrisy but so what else is new.

I'm not running for President. I'm not trying to bring a message of "hope and change". I never said Mr. W was my "spiritual advisor". I will defend everyone's right to say what they want to the fucking death...because I believe in that Freedom. I don't have to agree with what you say, to believe you have a right to say it

That's why my comments are open, that's why I don't ban people. I won't shut down and I won't slink away. Mr. W is NOT a racist. Not even close. His comments were inflaming but not racist. Take off your blinders. It is not irrelevant to mention Dave Chappelle or anyone else that uses a bull horn to talk about race.

We have all said things that could be construed poorly, if someone wanted to do that. It is very easy to do.

Like Double and Frankie and many others that read this blog, I think Mr. Wonderful is hilarious. On a personal note, despite his blog appearance I think his name is apropos. He is wonderful and it's really too bad some of you will never know it. He's the least SPoDEish person on this site and nobody here knows that better than I do.
4.3.2008 11:09am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Since I'm the subject of so much controversy lately, allow me to weigh in. (Although my Queen did a wonderful job of defending me.)

From what I gather, this SPoDE person was fond of banning ANYONE and EVERYONE who didn't agree with him. How am I like that, Ara? Really?

Everything I've posted on this site has been vivisected, disected and chopped up again, my character has been assassinated and I've even been called both a "racist" and a "pussy" by some of you so-called "enlightened" liberals.

Yet I've NEVER asked the Queen to reprimand or ban any of you. NEVER!

And I never will, either. Why? Because, like my Queen, I believe in a human being's right to speak their mind (what little bit of one that you might have). Instead of whining, snivelling and crying about "fair play," I give as good (and in most cases, better) than I get in here and simply chalk it all up to being part of the blogging world ... nature of the best, and all that.

So tell me, Ara ... how, then, am I anything like that idiot you keep trying to compare me too? And while you're answering questions, perhaps you could also tell me why you seem to believe that YOU have more of a right to express youreself than I do?

Don't worry ... I'll wait ...

Mr. Wonderful
4.3.2008 11:30am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
He's the least SPoDEish person on this site and nobody here knows that better than I do.
You're the only one who does, or at least one of the few. See, you have the advantage of knowing him in person, the real person, not the one he plays here on the blog.

The rest of us are at a distinct disadvantage knowing neither his history or real persona. We are left merely with his horrible behavior on your blog, Rose. And some of us, some who consider ourselves your friends are fairly shocked you set this in motion knowing how offensive it would be.

Frankly, I don't recall SPoDE going as far as your creature, but I don't read all that much over there. I know this. Someone who is the polar opposite of SPoDe would never act this way -- and putting on an act like this is simply dishonest to your readers.

And yet, we're chastised for not respecting the ruse when he was presented to us with zero respect for our trust that your personal friend and co-blogger would be able to argue from a conservative perspective without resorting to cheap race-baiting and engage in a dialog with the respect you insist he deserves but hasn't even attempted to earn.
4.3.2008 11:36am
shep (mail):
"I will defend everyone's right to say what they want to the fucking death...because I believe in that Freedom."

You mean like saying a guy is unqualified to be president because he knows another guy who said something (true) that you didn't want to hear?

1) You're full of shit.

2) Believe me, I could say some things that are unfit for print and don't deserve to said anywhere, regardless of my free speech rights.

3) This is all a parody.
4.3.2008 11:54am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
with the respect you insist he deserves but hasn't even attempted to earn.

Methinks the only way I could possibly "earn" your respect, Marky-Poo, would be to agree with everything you say.

Sorry, but that's "respect" I don't need to "earn."

Believe me, I could say some things that are unfit for print and don't deserve to said anywhere, regardless of my free speech rights.

And Shep, dear Shep ... this statement PROVES to me that you belive political correctness and your liberal agenda is more important than our right to free speech.

Keep digging boys ... keep on digging.
4.3.2008 12:16pm
TQL:
And Shep, dear Shep ... this statement PROVES to me that you belive political correctness and your liberal agenda is more important than our right to free speech.


No actually, it shows that he understand that no matter what right someone has to say something doesn't mean it is right to say it. With freedom also comes responsibility, otherwise you have utter chaos.
4.3.2008 12:24pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Rosemary:

I'm not running for President.

Don't flatter yourself.

I never said Mr. W was my "spiritual advisor".

Well, now that you've brought it up, what is he to you?

I don't have to agree with what you say, to believe you have a right to say it

That works fine for commenters. But when you have a front-page co-blogger spouting racist hate-speech, it reflects directly on your blog -- and your judgement.

Mr. W is NOT a racist. Not even close. His comments were inflaming but not racist.

Call it whatever you like: it was way over the line, not consistent with the community standards here and I'm deeply shocked and surprised that you are defending it. What are you getting in return for giving away your common decency? I'll tell you straight up Rose: it's a losing proposition.

He is wonderful and it's really too bad some of you will never know it. He's the least SPoDEish person on this site and nobody here knows that better than I do.

All I know is what I read. This guy is bad, bad, bad news.

Mr. W:

Yet I've NEVER asked the Queen to reprimand or ban any of you. NEVER!


Ask away for all I care. I've been banned before (for less) by people just like you. You (or Rose) can ban me anytime you like. I don't care. I call it like I see it.

how, then, am I anything like that idiot you keep trying to compare me too?

No sense of common decency. None.

And while you're answering questions, perhaps you could also tell me why you seem to believe that YOU have more of a right to express youreself than I do?

If you came into my home and said what you said, I would have bounced your ass out onto the sidewalk -- end of conversation. My mistake was in believing that Rosemary shared my values. Sadly, she doesn't. Apparently your kind of "humor" is perfectly fine with her.

It isn't with me.
4.3.2008 12:27pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
You mean like saying a guy is unqualified to be president because he knows another guy who said something (true) that you didn't want to hear?

No, I mean like saying a guy is unqualified to be president because he's being spiritually and otherwise advised the African-American version of David Duke.

Someone is full of shit but it ain't me.
4.3.2008 12:29pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Mr. W:

Methinks the only way I could possibly "earn" your respect, Marky-Poo, would be to agree with everything you say.

Wrong. I've known Mark for a long time; we've disagreed on many things. He has my respect and I hope I have his.

Neither one of us had to shit in someone else's punchbowl to get it. Grow up, OK? You're acting like a six-year-old brat.
4.3.2008 12:32pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
If you came into my home and said what you said, I would have bounced your ass out onto the sidewalk -- end of conversation.

Big words in cyberspace, little man. But I assure you that if we were to meet in person, it WOULD NOT go down as you described.

And since this isn't your house, I will continue to excercise my right to express myself freely.
4.3.2008 12:33pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Rosemary:

a guy is unqualified to be president because he's being spiritually and otherwise advised the African-American version of David Duke.


come on, Rosemary -- you hated Obama long before you ever heard of Rev. Wright. There's something about Obama that just rubs you the wrong way. Rev. Wright was a convenient peg to hang it on.

Admit it.
4.3.2008 12:34pm
Ara Rubyan (www):

Big words in cyberspace, little man. But I assure you that if we were to meet in person, it WOULD NOT go down as you described.


Grow up.

And since this isn't your house, I will continue to excercise my right to express myself freely.

Punchbowl's over there -- go take a dump for all I care.
4.3.2008 12:37pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Grow up, OK? You're acting like a six-year-old brat.

Yes, I'm whining, snivelling and crying and demanding that people be banned because they say things I don't agree with.

Ninja, please ...
4.3.2008 12:37pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
come on, Rosemary -- you hated Obama long before you ever heard of Rev. Wright. There's something about Obama that just rubs you the wrong way. Rev. Wright was a convenient peg to hang it on.
Admit it.


I don't hate him. I don't think he's qualified and it's true, I didn't think he was qualified before Rev. Wright. The more I learn about Obama the more convinced I am that he is lacking in what I want my POTUS to be.
4.3.2008 12:38pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Well, now that you've brought it up, what is he to you?

I thought I made it perfectly clear who he was. He is someone very important to me...

That works fine for commenters. But when you have a front-page co-blogger spouting racist hate-speech, it reflects directly on your blog -- and your judgement.

Well, he was acting in the capacity of a commenter at the time. Plus, he is not a co-blogger. At the moment I have one co-blogger, Arnold Harris; Wonderful is a guest blogger. Again, it wasn't racist hate speech. Funny that you see it as hate speech that reflects on my judgement but yet...Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge. That smacks of hypocrisy, a bit.

Everyone has a different sense of humor. I suppose you find Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, Sam Kinison, and frankly every comic outside of Bill Cosby to be offensive haters?

I don't. To each his own.
4.3.2008 12:49pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Ninja, please ...

Punchbowl. Over. There.

I don't think he's qualified

Come on Rose: just say it -- he rubs you the wrong way. There's just something about him. You just can't put your finger on it...

...The Harvard education, the community organizing. Or maybe he's yet another man who wants to cut in line ahead of Hillary. You can't stand it -- he's too hip by half, too sexy for his shirt. He's wine vs. beer, he's doesn't even look American. And that Kenyan grandmother!

Deep down it probably chaps your ass, his refusal to go all H. Rap Brown, no matter how much people goad him.

Deep down underneath you just believe he's got a freak flag that he's hiding.

And Michelle Obama? Don't get you started!

Am I right? You know I am.
4.3.2008 12:54pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Again, it wasn't racist hate speech. Funny that you see it as hate speech that reflects on my judgement but yet...Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge. That smacks of hypocrisy, a bit.

Oh snap!

You know, I never thought of this, but my Queen is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

The old double-standard, she ain't what she used to be, many long years ago!
4.3.2008 12:55pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge. That smacks of hypocrisy, a bit.

Obama has already said WHY he could no more repudiate Rev. Wright than he could repudiate his own white grandmother. Didn't you read the speech?

No matter: what you're saying then is that Mr. Wonderful is more than a co-blogger.

You're saying that Mr. Wonderful is like a member of your family...?

hmmmm.

"very important to you....close personal friend."

Jaysus. It just occured to me. I really am thick!
4.3.2008 1:00pm
TQL:
No, I mean like saying a guy is unqualified to be president because he's being spiritually and otherwise advised the African-American version of David Duke

Not to revive this dead horse, but here it goes.

Wright is not the same as David Duke. Perhaps you are outraged and felt threatened by the angry tone of what he said, but to compare him to David Duke, who was part of an organization that actively promoted the death and destruction of people of color because he feels White folks are superior, is an apples and oranges comparison. Come up with a better, more honest comparison to demonstrate your outrage with Wright.

But, I'll ask you a similar question I asked another friend, that I think gets to the heart of the whole Mr. W debacle:

Was it WHAT Wright said that has you up in arms or HOW he said it?

My answer - What he said, was valid critique of how this country has treated marginalized people (read: not White, male, or wealthy). He didn't say anything about WHITE PEOPLE. Get over it already! How he said it wasn't particularly helpful to the point he was trying to make and crossed a line that made people uncomfortable.

Just as, Mr. W's point that you highlighted in this post about how some Whites view Obama was correct and valid. Using the term "kill whitey" the way he did to try and illustrate the point, was over the line.

So really, how is using Wright’s words to label him as a hate monger, without knowing anything other than his words, any different than folks here using Mr. W.’s words to label him an ignorant racist, and they don’t know who he is?
4.3.2008 1:06pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Rose:

I suppose you find Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, Sam Kinison, and frankly every comic outside of Bill Cosby to be offensive haters?


Not at all. I actually think they're all funny. Mr. Wonderful, however, is not.

But maybe I'm misjudging him: Maybe he's got 20 minutes of standup that kills. I doubt it. But who really knows?

All I've know is what he writes -- and in print, he ain't funny.
4.3.2008 1:06pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Mr. Wonderful:

Oh snap! You know, I never thought of this, but my Queen is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!


Trust me -- you don't want to go there.

And, dude? Lose the caps n bangs.
4.3.2008 1:09pm
TQL:
Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge. That smacks of hypocrisy, a bit.


You do see the irony of this statement, don't you Rose? I support your decision to keep Mr. W, but you have understand why people are putting you to the fire for it.

Though you are not running for POTUS, you are the Queen of this world and you are allowing Mr. W to continue posting despite what others see as as his OBVIOUS *racist* ways.

...it all comes down to perspective. And double-standards abound, depending on where you stand.
4.3.2008 1:16pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
TQL:

All due respect, that isn't quite it.

Rose won't repudiate Mr. W and Obama won't repudiate Rev. Wright, yes that is a parallel. And for all I know, that may be the joke that Rose is playing on us all.

And/But Rose is not being a hypocrite; nor is Obama...

...if we're to understand and accept the closeness of the relationship between Obama/Wright and Rose/Mr. W.

IJS.
4.3.2008 1:21pm
shep (mail):
"I don't think he's qualified and it's true, I didn't think he was qualified before Rev. Wright. The more I learn about Obama the more convinced I am that he is lacking in what I want my POTUS to be."

Number one, you don’t know jack shit about Obama and you’ve proved that on many occasions. If you’d like me to put together a little quiz for you, it "would be my pleasure.

But that’s not your problem. Your problem is you claim to prefer either Hillary Clinton or John McCain which means you think they are better qualified. No. Ability. To. Discern.


"Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge."

Again, you don’t know jack shit about what you are talking about (I'm shocked). The tiny snippets you know about are out of context of a given sermon (suggesting that Wright hates American racism, not America – he served as a US Marine, for God’s sake) no less an entire thirty-year career as a minister to a poor, black congregation (I suppose that the thousands of people who attended his sermons every Sunday are all fucked up because of that too).

You have no clue whatsoever what his spiritual counseling to Obama was, you only have the figments and prejudices conjured by your own twisted imagination. Like I said, completely full of [right-wing] shit.
4.3.2008 1:21pm
TQL:
Ara: I'm not saying that Rose is being a hypocrite. But just as she thinks she is valid in calling Obama one, so do others in calling her one.
4.3.2008 1:24pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
([Wright] served as a US Marine, for God’s sake) no less an entire thirty-year career as a minister to a poor, black congregation (I suppose that the thousands of people who attended his sermons every Sunday are all fucked up because of that too).

Great point. Thanks for remembering to mention it.
4.3.2008 1:25pm
shep (mail):
"Punchbowl's over there -- go take a dump for all I care."

You know better than that, Ara. Don't feed the monkeys, they're for pointing and laughing at.
4.3.2008 1:25pm
TQL:
Shep:

Trinity is hardly a poor congregation. Black, yes. Poor, not entirely.
4.3.2008 1:28pm
shep (mail):
Point taken. It's not entirely black either, BTW.
4.3.2008 1:45pm
TQL:
Shep:

I know, I've been to Trinity. But, it is overwhelmingly Black...you can hardly call it a multicultural church.

My comment was not to split hairs. You missed the point I was making. Nevermind...
4.3.2008 1:50pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Don't feed the monkeys, they're for pointing and laughing at.

Only if they stay in their cages. When they run amuck, well, that's a different matter.
4.3.2008 2:00pm
shep (mail):
"You missed the point I was making."

No, I got it. It's a pretty solidly middle-class congregation. I was thinking more about the community they worked. Sorry for the hair-splitting.
4.3.2008 2:03pm
shep (mail):
"Only if they stay in their cages. When they run amuck, well, that's a different matter."

OK, then pick up a big stick. Not like it's a tiger or some sort of animal you need to take seriously.
4.3.2008 2:12pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
I call it the way I see it. Your mileage may vary.
4.3.2008 2:15pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Funny that you see it as hate speech that reflects on my judgement but yet...Rev. Wright's OBVIOUS hate America, racist hate filled sermons are his alone and not reflecting on Obama's ability to judge. That smacks of hypocrisy, a bit.
And the morality play enters Act IV.

If the cartoon's typist didn't see that coming a mile away, he's far less perceptive than I gave him credit for. Perhaps I was mistaken and he really is just plain stupid. Far too ignorant to be entrusted with such a demanding role as principle antagonist.

Just a stooge after all, a bit player, a set piece. Merely a prop. I was hoping this show would have a better ending with such a protracted build-up.

Ara, you think? this may? be the point of all this, to finally get to the Obama/Wright Rose/W comparison? It's been the entire purpose of the exercise for days now.
4.3.2008 2:24pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
But Mark, how do you really feel about me?
4.3.2008 2:48pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Ara, you think? this may? be the point of all this, to finally get to the Obama/Wright Rose/W comparison? It's been the entire purpose of the exercise for days now.

Trust me, if so, all he did was "exonerate" Obama.

And given Rose's hatred of the Senator, that might have been the worst outcome of all for her (and the stooge).
4.3.2008 3:16pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
I. DON'T. HATE. OBAMA.

I hate Al Gore, I disdain most vehemently the French looking Senator from MA who, by the way, served in Vietnam...

Obama is just an empty suit with hope, no plan, far-left ideas and no experience. I don't hate him, I just don't want him to lead my country. But that isn't hate. Hell, I don't even disagree with all of his positions. I want DADT removed from the military and I want the DOMA abolished. I'm also very much in favor of some kind of national healthcare.

Those aren't my top issues, my top ones are where he bites the dirt and that isn't going to change.
4.3.2008 3:25pm
shep (mail):
"Obama is just an empty suit with hope, no plan, far-left ideas and no experience. I don't hate him, I just don't want him to lead my country. But that isn't hate. Hell, I don't even disagree with all of his positions. I want DADT removed from the military and I want the DOMA abolished. I'm also very much in favor of some kind of national healthcare."

Jesus, Rosemary, you sound absolutely unhinged. You favor his "far-left ideas", but say he has no plan. If only he had the "experience" of being the wife of the president for eight years.

BTW, what difference does experience make if it doesn't make your judgment any better?
4.3.2008 3:33pm
shep (mail):
One more thing:

“It is not irrelevant to mention Dave Chappelle or anyone else that uses a bull horn to talk about race.”


Yes it absolutely is. Dave Chappelle is a black man. Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock get to drop the n-word, say “kill whitey” or pretty much make any race-based joke they want and not just because, unlike Mr. Full-o-shit, they are actually funny.

Let’s put the false equivalency crap to bed right now. White people sold that right away when they sold black people for 300 years and segregated blacks from whites for another hundred years after that. Rev. Wright is old enough to know about being prevented from using the same bathrooms, bus seats and restaurants as whites. And the urban ghettos and outrageously disproportion black incarceration and dropout rates that are still with us mean that particular playing field hasn’t been leveled by a long shot.

As John Rogers recent notified: “Attention Fellow White People: if Barrack Obama becomes president we will still control everything. Everything”.

Let me spell it out for you: black people get to talk or joke about white racism, white people get to talk or joke about white racism, black people get to talk or joke about black racism, but white people don’t get to talk or joke about black racism. Blacks have earned that right; we haven’t.
4.3.2008 3:36pm
TQL:
Shep:

Actually, you are starting to sound unhinged. You keep digging and digging for a *reason* for Rose to come clean about her *true* reasons for *hating* Obama.

I've only been reading for a couple of weeks, and it is really getting old.

If you think her motivations for not liking Obama are biggoted or racist, then man up and explicitly say that's what you think. Accept her answer to the question, and let it die.
4.3.2008 3:43pm
Frankie J (mail):
Rose, I didn't say that I thought that Mr. W. was hilarious...in fact his words have pissed me off quite a bit. Dave Chappelle and SNL are both on TV. I know what to expect when I tune into those programs. I don't expect those things to show up here, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a place here.

What I did say was that he has a right to be here and say what he wants, how he wants to say it as much as anyone else.

The downside to that is that we're going to have to deal with him...and you will have to continue to defend him for everything he says that's out of line. He can obviously hold his own in this forum when scores of us are attacking him. And by "hold his own", I mean that he hasn't run away, yet. I don't expect him to. The biggest problem is that most of us here don't know him or his sense of humor well enough to know if he's joking or not. Even as a remotely inexperienced blogger, I know better than to just roll into an established blog, guns blazing, before the people there get to know me.

This blog has gotten a little too emotional over the past few days, but some of us have gotten a little childish over all of this.

It's quite childish to even bring up who would kick who's ass. At this rate, someone is going to say that their Dad can kick Wonderful's Dad's ass...and it will just escalate from there. I've seen it all on playgrounds across America.

But that's what this has turned into, right? Mr. Wonderful's playground...and he only has as much fun as you guys let him have.

I was told by Rosemary and Tim that if I decided to jump on this cyber-playground, I would be allowed to say whatever...however I wanted. I assume that everyone else expects the same.

Thank you TQL...you've had the only comments on this thread that I've 100% agreed with.

This should be over. He made his offensive comment, and he's taken his criticism for it. That should be enough...unless he wants to continue shake his sword on this issue.

Please...just call a truce until his next offensive diatribe, when we can all pile onto him, and apparently Rose, again.
4.3.2008 3:53pm
TQL:
but white people don’t get to talk or joke about black racism. Blacks have earned that right; we haven’t.


...and what would it take for White's to *earn* that right? Because really, if they can't talk about how they are impacted by the biggoted feelings and beliefs that we hold against them, this whole ugly cycle will continue.

Racism, just like any other system of oppression, injures both the oppressor and the oppressed. It's a wound that festers on both sides. Yes, the hurt may be deeper on the Black side than it is on the White side, but to discount the experience of their perspective is ridiculous. It does no good to silence either side. Anybody who truly cares about racial reconciliation and dismantling systems of oppression knows that merely scapegoating and silencing does not lead to real progress.
4.3.2008 3:54pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Thank you, TQL.

I'm not discounting the fact that blacks have experienced oppression. But by accident of birth, I am tarred with a brush that MY ANCESTORS had NOTHING TO DO WITH.

My family is POLISH. My people are SLAVS. We were oppressed, enslaved, murdered and came here to be free.

Now I am being blamed for the sins of a small minority of WHITE ANGLO-SAXONS simply for having pale skin. That is some BULLSHIT. Slavery is as much my fault, my Slavic ancestor's fault and pale skin's fault... as 9/11 was God's punishment for American tolerance and complete acceptance of homosexuality.

Fuck that!
4.3.2008 4:07pm
shep (mail):
"...and what would it take for White's to *earn* that right? Because really, if they can't talk about how they are impacted by the biggoted feelings and beliefs that we hold against them, this whole ugly cycle will continue."

They'd have to remake the culture so that, at least, it didn't disadvantage blacks. That's the primary prerequisite to stop "this whole ugly cycle," isn't it. If we don't, how will whites talking about black resentment for their disadvantage help?
4.3.2008 4:09pm
shep (mail):
"Now I am being blamed for the sins of a small minority of WHITE ANGLO-SAXONS simply for having pale skin."

Get over yourself, Rosemary. You're a white person living in a white dominated society that disadvantages people of color. No one's blaming you for that, I'm just saying that you don't get to compound the crime by blaming people of color for their legitimate complaints.
4.3.2008 4:12pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
But by accident of birth, I am tarred with a brush that MY ANCESTORS had NOTHING TO DO WITH.

Mine either. Hell, I wasn't even born in this country. So what? Grow up Rose. You live here now.

My family is POLISH. My people are SLAVS. We were oppressed, enslaved, murdered and came here to be free.

But not on slave ships, I'll venture to guess.

Now I am being blamed for the sins of a small minority of WHITE ANGLO-SAXONS simply for having pale skin. That is some BULLSHIT.

Know what Rose? We're all in this thing together. You don't get to retreat into some all-Polish, or all-white enclave. That's not how we roll here. If you want to be left alone, go back to Poland.

Fuck that!

Wah wah wah. Call the fucking wahm-bulance.
4.3.2008 4:15pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
What a cry-baby.
4.3.2008 4:16pm
Tim (mail):
Wow...if we get to 100 posts on this thread you have to keep Mr. Wonderful....he's like a big giant turd on the sidewalk. You don't want to step in it, it smells bad, but you just can't look away because it's so disgusting.

It will get old after a while though....

IJS
4.3.2008 4:21pm
TQL:
They'd have to remake the culture so that, at least, it didn't disadvantage blacks. That's the primary prerequisite to stop "this whole ugly cycle," isn't it. If we don't, how will whites talking about black resentment for their disadvantage help?

They who, Shep? Every single white person in this country?

I agree that society needs to be reshaped so that everyone has equal opportunities. I totally feel you on that. BUT, that happens systemically, and to assume that will happen on it's own, without addressing the very personal and emotional (as evidenced by this never-ending thread) ways in which racism and privilege impacts us is incredibly naive.

But by accident of birth, I am tarred with a brush that MY ANCESTORS had NOTHING TO DO WITH.


Rose's words are real and true to her experience. Her ancestors had nothing to do with the racist history of this country. But, she does benefit from that history it because she is white. Just like you, benefit from sexism because you have male privilege. And that is where privilege comes in. Privilege, be it racial, class, gender, sexuality, is a very difficult and at times a very painful thing to understand. And people don't come to understanding that, if they ever do, by beating beaten and bloodied on a blog, with veiled and overt accusations of being racist.
4.3.2008 4:25pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
LOL

I was born here. My citizenship is a birthright.

So now we are all in this together? Sorry, I thought we have different rules based on our appearance.

But not on slave ships, I'll venture to guess.

No...after they (my parents) survived Hitler and then Stalin - they hopped over here and got right to life in elite society because they had glorious white skin...well, actually it's more olive toned but hey whatever.
4.3.2008 4:26pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Oy vey, Ara! You're so mashugena!
4.3.2008 4:27pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
And you're a wormy scumbag.
4.3.2008 4:39pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Don't talk to me, OK?
4.3.2008 4:42pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
That's so not true ... the doctors de-wormed me at birth. Now, I'm safely housebroken.
4.3.2008 4:43pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
And still a scumbag.
4.3.2008 4:44pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Rose, you kinda get it, but turn your privilege into victimization. That privilege was granted you by your family's decision to move where their appearance would be beneficial instead of moving to, say Jamaica where they'd be a minority.

As attractive as the victim card is, just like the conservative meme that income taxes punish success, it's a canard that deliberately ignores historical injustice, (economic, racial, take your pick) and really just serves to preserve the inequities of the status quo.

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! Witness the inequities inherent in the system!"

Just stop it. It's only funny when you've got shit all over you.
4.3.2008 4:53pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
"White men are the true victims!"

Only a moron could believe that.
4.3.2008 4:56pm
TQL:
Mark:

Yay, you used the dreaded "P" word...
4.3.2008 4:56pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Well, sure except my family moved to Detroit. We were the minority...
4.3.2008 5:00pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
In any case, I'm tired of being labeled a racist by a bunch of white men.

Sexist pigs!
4.3.2008 5:02pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Did you live in Detroit? I grew up there. What neighborhood were you in?
4.3.2008 5:03pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Was it Hamtramck?
4.3.2008 5:04pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
C'mon people ... let's get some perspective here.

Perhaps you all should've taken the time to read Barry Obama's speech on race ... I believe it was delivered when he was (more or less) denouncing the more radical views of his spiritual mentor. My close, personal friend TQL sent it to me some time ago, and admittedly, it made some good points.

The point I found most striking (and I'm paraphrasing here because I do not have the speech in front of me) was Barry's challenge to look at the issues of race from all sides, because everybody's voice is valid.

An example he cited was one very similar to my Queen's (and my family's) experience - that of the immigrant who came to this country and made a success of him/herself through hard work. Barry Obama himself said that the points made by these Americans were just as valid as those made by blacks and every other American. And that ALL these views must be taken into consideration if we're ever to overcome the devastating racial divides in this country.

Admittedly, I'm not a Barry supporter (as you all know), but even I must admit that his words are food for thought here. More importantly, Barry's message clearly flies in the face of Shep's opinion that whites are not allowed to make jokes based on their experiences with other races in America, and basically everything else Shep spewed on that subject.

And you call yourself a Barry supporter!
4.3.2008 5:08pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Warren Ave and Southfield...Cody High School.
4.3.2008 5:09pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Cooty High...eew.

Just because your family belonged to the ethnic/racial minority didn't make you oppressed, Rose. That's one of the reasons I didn't use South Africa as my example.

What we haven't done in this country is undergone a period of national reconciliation, like undertook in South Africa. We had Reconstruction which unfortunately was marked by carpetbaggers, exploitation and left Jim Crow and segregation as it's legacy. Geez, the Federal Court in Cleveland just withdrew itself from integration control of the school district a couple of years ago.

It's taken about a hundred comments for Mr. W to inject his first constructive contribution to this thread, or blog for that matter. But he is right that the best part of Obama's take on all this is that white gripes can be aired as a legitimate perspective, the resentment no matter how unjustified is real.

That by no means gives us a right to fashion our concerns as more deserving, just that there is value in respecting those view as a reality no matter if they are rational or require redress. It does indeed alert us all that some white folks do indeed need to be reassured that they will still control every damn thing.

Oh, and no one is going to take away their damn guns either.

See, once such nonsense it actually spoken aloud and not just acted out, it can be exposed for the foolish, selfish narrow-minded bullshit it is.
4.3.2008 5:40pm
shep (mail):
Look everybody, I got the monkey to advocate understanding the racial experience of minorities (rather shouting them down as un-American) and paraphrasing Barrack Obama. Now you can feed him.
4.3.2008 6:25pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Warren Ave and Southfield...Cody High School.

Right. I remember now. I was at Grand Blvd. and Woodward Ave. Cass Tech HS.

Admittedly I'm older than you; but as I recall, in my day, that neighborhood had plenty of Polish families in it.

In fact, I knew lots of Polish kids at Cass that would have gone to Cody if they hadn't been smart enough to get into Cass Tech.

[insert smiley face here]
4.3.2008 7:48pm
McKiernan:
Cass Tech always had all the brainiacs.

Even then you could get to know a Polish.

You're beautiful Ara.
4.3.2008 8:12pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Ha! I was accepted at Cass and Renaissance - but it was too far of a walk and I had no means to get there. Smart ass. ;-)
4.3.2008 9:08pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
"Too far of a walk?"

What -- you were too good for the bus? If I recall correctly, there was a Warren Ave. bus and you could have transferred to the Woodward Ave. bus at WSU campus.

I rode the Woodward Ave. DSR bus to and from school every day. On the way in, it dropped me off right in front of the Stone Burlesque.

Ahhhh. Those were the days.
4.3.2008 9:31pm
McKiernan:
Ara you're breaking my heart.

I took the bus, actually two buses for four years to the McNichols campus of the Univ of Detroit a long time ago transferring at Second Ave to Livernois.

Before that I took one bus and one streetcar to high school at Grand Blvd and Gratiot for four years.

Our high school always kicked butt on the public school football team winning the City championship two years in a row.
4.3.2008 10:36pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
You still live there?
4.3.2008 11:11pm
McKiernan:
No more, but a very large part of my heart has never ever left and that is largely why it is I still feel so connected even if only through QOAE or DW.

Otherwise, I would never be here.
4.3.2008 11:27pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
No, but my parents wouldn't allow me to go that far by bus...alone. I was only 13.
4.3.2008 11:30pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Look everybody, I got the monkey to advocate understanding the racial experience of minorities (rather shouting them down as un-American) and paraphrasing Barrack Obama. Now you can feed him.

Don't be so quick to take credit, Shep, especially where it isn't due. My own intelligence, coupled with my close friendship with TQL allows me to consider perspectives other than my own. Unlike you, you makes ridiculous statements that have absolutely no basis in anything constructive.

Furthermore, I will say that while it's important for whites to understand the racial experience of minorities, it's equally important for minorities to understand the impact that their violent outbursts have on white society, case in point, the L.A. Riots.

Both actions are real, have deadly consequences and need to be addressed in order for all groups to move forward.
4.4.2008 12:24am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
It's taken about a hundred comments for Mr. W to inject his first constructive contribution to this thread, or blog for that matter.

And I can't go to bed before addressing this one. Funny how Mark only gives me credit when I say something that his highness agrees with.
4.4.2008 12:25am
matoko_chan (mail):

Oh, well, I'd prefer an Army of matoko's to one Mr. Wonderful.

pfft....u cudn't even handle one of me.
;)

well....i think Mr. Wunnerful is perfectly acceptable in the South Park Spirit of this blog.

either everything is OK to make fun of, or nothing is.
lawls.
4.4.2008 12:30am
matoko_chan (mail):
and i'm still voting for Obama.
:)
4.4.2008 12:36am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Yay! Matoko is commenting again.
4.4.2008 12:37am
shep (mail):
"Don't be so quick to take credit, Shep, especially where it isn't due. My own intelligence, coupled with my close friendship with TQL allows me to consider perspectives other than my own."

Well, I'm happy to credit TQL if you say so. Otherwise, talk about credit where it isn't due.
4.4.2008 12:37am
matoko_chan (mail):
Rosemary....always be.
4.4.2008 12:43am
matoko_chan (mail):
Sometimes it feels like Rose an i are hiding out in the Museum of Guy Culture after hours.
ur artifacts are astonishing.
4.4.2008 12:47am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
:-)
4.4.2008 12:47am
Ara Rubyan (www):
No, but my parents wouldn't allow me to go that far by bus...alone. I was only 13.

I had just turned 14 ... and was living with my 21 year old brother. My parents and sisters lived in Southfield. Long story.

Mr.W:

while it's important for whites to understand the racial experience of minorities, it's equally important for minorities to understand the impact that their violent outbursts have on white society, case in point, the L.A. Riots.


Yes. Well.

Let's stipulate that there's a history of "violent outbursts" on both sides, if you catch my drift. Do you need me to list them out?

Both actions are real, have deadly consequences and need to be addressed in order for all groups to move forward.


Come on, man, drop the shtick. Stop mugging for the camera long enough to get serious for a moment. Be honest. You read Obama's speech. Who's better suited to lead the nation on this than Obama?

I was intrigued by Condi Rice's comments on this recently. It didn't get a lot of play except as a context for Lou Dobbs referring to her as a "cotton picker:"

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said.
Mr. W, I have no idea who you are. I don't know if you're young or old. If you're married or not. I don't don't know if you have any kids or not.

But if you did, and one of them had a serious birth defect, how could you sleep at night knowing that your baby wasn't right? Wouldn't you do everything you could to fix her and help her get better?

Now I realize that some white people generally believe we talk about this way too much and some blacks generally believe we don't talk about it enough.

But come on: birth defect. I'd rather err on the side of being too attentive to the problem than the opposite.

Wouldn't you?

Whatever you believe, Condi gets it right: this country was born with a crucial flaw and we "continue to see some of the effects of that." That defect must be corrected. No way to gloss over it. Not if we want to move forward as a nation into the future. And I believe that Obama is uniquely suited to provide that leadership -- by example, if nothing else.
4.4.2008 7:46am
IB Bill (mail):
Mr. W.:

Shep would be a classic troll if he weren't so emotionally unstable. You're better off not feeding him. Don't let him get to you. If you've noticed, if he isn't arguing and putting you down, he's arguing or putting down someone else.

And of course, he has no sense of humor about it. He can't imagine it isn't all about him. Seriously, read a series of Shep's comments, and you'll realize how just-plain-nuts the guy is. I mean, he cannot believe that an intelligent, informed person would come to very different conclusions that he does. And knowing that people can disagree is a sign of a mature adult, which Shep isn't.

What I've enjoyed about this thread and others with Mr. W. is how he causes the most annoying commenters here fits. And they deserve it.

Mark Adams, at least you can talk to him, and he's willing to de-escalate with humor.

Ara can be funny, but is also insulting and sometimes he just puts people on. He seems to have an obsession lately with telling people to "grow up," which makes me wonder what he's doing hanging out with a group of people he thinks are so immature. If you want a grown-up discussion, go to Volokh.

Tim has an unjustified confidence in his own opinion, but seems like he'd be funny, likeable, and personable in person.

But Shep -- dude's got something really wrong with him. Probably a borderline personality (psychological speak for "terminal asshole") or he even may be a full-blown psychopath. I'd just ignore him. That's what I've learned to do. And you'll see that if you ignore him, he just transfers his rage and pathologies onto someone else ... even though he tries to mask them behind condescension and contempt.

Shep truly believes that he's right and no intelligent or honest person could come to very different conclusions about the world -- one of many thought distortions that trigger his rage and frustration.

If anyone should be banned, it's Shep.
4.4.2008 7:53am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Matoko:

Sometimes it feels like Rose an i are hiding out in the Museum of Guy Culture after hours.
ur artifacts are astonishing.


Absolutely brilliant insight -- seriously. (And I dug the video too). And -- I'll take it as a compliment! I've often felt like one of those dinosaurs in the museum.

Seriously, Matoko: great comment. You nailed it. That made my day.

Sometimes you have to keep pulling at a thread to get to the best part of it.

IB Bill:

I wouldn't be so quick to psychoanalyze anyone, especially from afar, even if you're a doctor, which I'd be surprised if you were. IJS.

As for your being sensitive about me telling someone to "grow up" well, I call it the way I see it. If you find that insulting sometimes, well, it's the hit dog that howls.

I like hanging out here because, well, it's like shooting those moving ducks on the midway at the carny.

Why are you here?
4.4.2008 8:06am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Ara can be funny, but is also insulting and sometimes he just puts people on.

That's me: the Groucho Marx of Rosemary's world.
4.4.2008 8:47am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Ara,

My mom just wanted you to know something - she doesn't leave comments. When they arrived here they lived in an apartment on 32nd and McGraw. The neighborhood was not white or Polish. Mom was pregnant with me while they watched apartment buildings burn to the ground around them during the summer riots in 1967. They bought their first house in the neighborhood I grew up in - 2 years later.

They were new immigrants and their first memories of this country were RIOTS, danger and being blamed for being white despite the fact that didn't speak good English. That shit colors your perception and they were protective of their children, in Detroit, because their experience dictated that they be so.
4.4.2008 9:28am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Tell your mom I said hi. I'd probably like her -- she sounds kind of like my mom. Tell her I think she raised at least two fine daughters. (Sorry Jerry, you and I haven't met personally, but I'm sure you're OK too.)

I was 14 in the summer of 1967 and I had a paper route -- my first real job (which my mother insisted I get. Ha!) Anyway, I remember my route manager telling me I was NOT to deliver papers that week of the riots.

He didn't have to work to convince me. I heard the gunshots at night, saw the fires lighting up the night and saw the National Guard tanks and soldiers on every street corner. Oddly enough, when it was all over and I continued my deliveries to my route, some customers complained that they didn't get a paper that week. Not that I was going to charge them for it, but jeez.

Anyway, you're right about how that stuff colors your perceptions. You know what I got from that summer? I remember the Algiers Motel Incident:


The Algiers Motel Incident is the title of a book by John Richard Hersey.

Published in 1968, the book describes an incident occurring during the 1967 riots in Detroit.

Three black youths were killed and nine others brutally beaten, almost certainly by police or members of the United States National Guard in the Algiers Motel, but no defendants were convicted in subsequent state and federal trials.

The Algiers Motel (now demolished) once stood at the intersection of Woodward Avenue and Virginia Park in the geographic center of Detroit, approximately one mile southeast of where the 12th Street Riot began.
At the time, we lived at 120 Virginia Park, six doors down from the Algiers motel.

Yeah. It colors your perceptions.
4.4.2008 9:53am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Mom reads the blog and all the comments. You can address her directly - she just won't climb in and leave comments. Though, recently, the temptation has almost been too hard to resist. ;-)
4.4.2008 10:23am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
From the annals of obvious observations, ladies and gentlemen, I give you this "Wonderful" gem:
Funny how Mark only gives me credit when I say something that his highness agrees with.
Shocking that I would agree with something I ... um, agree with. And actually say so.

More shocking still I would respond negatively to something I disagreed with, especially when presented in a deliberately foul and insulting manner.

Our little cartoon grows and learns. Awww. Be proud everyone as we witness the development of an actual human being. Just don't feed him too much or his big fat head will explode. This'll some take time.

You get another virtual pat on the head for that one Mr. W, just for trying to be such a good boy. You just keep trying to learn the rituals of civilized discussion and the rest of us will guide you along. Practice makes perfect.
4.4.2008 11:00am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Truth be told, we actually do have community standards here. Cross the line and we drop a farking BarcaLounger on your head. Stay within the boundaries and we all play nice.

mkay?
4.4.2008 11:34am
shep (mail):
"If anyone should be banned, it's Shep."

Wow, Bill, that was quite a rant. Really, ever see me write anything like that? Better check yourself.
4.4.2008 12:39pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Yeah shep, but admit it. You mumbled a lot of it under your breath.

IWH

[Insert Winkie Here]
4.4.2008 1:00pm
IB Bill (mail):
I like hanging out here because, well, it's like shooting those moving ducks on the midway at the carny.

Why are you here?


Procrastinating, mostly.
4.4.2008 1:00pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Get back to work!
4.4.2008 1:09pm
IB Bill (mail):
Sigh. Yeah, I suppose I'd better. See you in 10 minutes :)
4.4.2008 1:25pm
shep (mail):
"Yeah shep, but admit it. You mumbled a lot of it under your breath."

Na, no psychopaths on this blog (I'm 99% sure ;^).

Definitely not Bill, he wears his emotions on his sleeve.
4.4.2008 2:27pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
There are no psychopaths on this blog...anymore. ;-)
4.4.2008 2:55pm
Tim (mail):
Why are there ketchup stains on his sleeve?
4.4.2008 4:40pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Because he really, really, really wants to show us his loooove for ketchup.
4.4.2008 6:39pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Na, no psychopaths on this blog (I'm 99% sure ;^).
See, that's the example that positively drives me nuts, I never know what to do with it and it makes me completely rewrite entire passages.

What the hell are you supposed to do when you want to put the winkie inside a parenthetical statement. I mean, do you double-up on the parentheses? Put in the parenthesis, ending punctuation for the sentence, another parenthesis? There are different rules where the ending punctuation goes of course, but with the damn winkie it looks like you've got yourself a parenthetical within a parenthetical any way you do it (and that looks stupid. IWH), erroneously signaling the reader to go back and look for an open parenthesis to go with the closed one. ;-)

Fraking Winkies. (Shhh, got to go make popcorn for so I can find out who the 12th Cylon is.);-)-op=(^P8-) F it. IWH!

You grammar nazis let me know what you come up with.


Hmm, ketchup doesn't go good w/popcorn.
4.4.2008 9:15pm
shep (mail):
"What the hell are you supposed to do when you want to put the winkie inside a parenthetical statement."

Funny, I often put my snark in parens just so I can close it with a winkie (hate the period after though.

Obscure acronyms are another matter: "IWH". WTF?
4.5.2008 5:47pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
IWH=Insert Winkie Here
4.5.2008 8:16pm
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