The Queen's Court

Subscribe

Titles RSS

Get Posts by Email

Monkeys and Buffalo and Barry, Oh My!

By: Mr. Wonderful

Thank you Barry Obama – thank you for proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that you’re a typical liberal willing to pander to the fascist notion of “political correctness.”

After delivering a rousing speech on race that, for a minute even had me fooled, Barack Obama turns around and sacrifices free speech for the comforts of political correctness, and all in the name of race. Barry the “great American” decided to ask one of his delegates and supporters to step down after she was accused at making a “racist” comment. While the comment was laughable and the accusation of racism a stretch, to say the least, the implications this incident has to the future of the First Amendment in this country is nothing to laugh at. His actions, as well as the actions of others involved in this case illustrate how our right to free speech is being replaced with state-sponsored Political Correctness. A disturbing thought, indeed!

(show)

Posted by Mr. Wonderful on 04.09.2008
Ara Rubyan (www):
Wonder which story gets more play in the traditional media: this one or the one about McSame's surrogate who thinks the Senator is running against Tiger Woods?
4.9.2008 6:38am
Ara Rubyan (www):
As for McSame's surrogate, he's been captured on video and it will be played endlessly, I'm sure.

It's even swaddled in Keith Olbermann's intro and Dr. Michael Eric Dyson's observations about the incident.

Dyson alone will make your head explode, Mr. W!

And when you're done picking up the pieces, you'll have another 50 blog posts about how white males are the real victims of racial prejudice.

Win-win!
4.9.2008 7:12am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Thank you for those completely off-topic posts, Ara. We all feel refreshed and challenged by your unique viewpoints.
4.9.2008 9:03am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Totally on-topic comment, dude: what is (and isn't) accepted as politcally correct language -- especially about race. Especially in the traditional media. Especially during a political campaign. Especially when one of the major party candidates is likely to be a black man.

That all flies under your radar?
4.9.2008 9:12am
TQL:
Ara:

The Tiger Woods comment was a metaphor. A bad one, considering Woods' ability to whoop White boys on regular basis, but a metaphor none the less and not a racist jab.

If the mother felt Ramirez-Sliwinski's comment was racist, she should've gone to her directly and spoken with her. Not gone to the police involved.
4.9.2008 9:31am
Ara Rubyan (www):
The Tiger Woods comment was a metaphor.

For...what exactly? If it wasn't a victory metaphor, if it wasn't a racist jab, what TF was he getting at? Or I should ask, what was he trying to get at?

If the mother felt Ramirez-Sliwinski's comment was racist, she should've gone to her directly and spoken with her. Not gone to the police involved.


Yeah, I hear you. That seemed a little bit over the top to me too. But then again, we don't get anything from the story about what it's like living near this woman. For all I know there's a whole back-story that puts this thing in another light.
4.9.2008 9:39am
Ara Rubyan (www):
P.S. ...considering Woods' ability to whoop White boys on regular basis...

I wasn't aware that golf scores kept track of the race of the golfers...? Or are you making a metaphor for Obama whooping white Hillary...or white McCain?

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
4.9.2008 9:45am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Apparently, Ramirez-Sliwinski and the mother of the children had some disagreements in the past, though there were no further details on that issue.

Even so, it could still go both ways.

In my experience in neighborly disputes, it's oftentimes the aggressor who ends up calling the police if he/she is unable to get their way in the argument.
4.9.2008 9:51am
TQL:
Ara:

You are hopeless. Really, you are. LOL
4.9.2008 10:08am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Mr. W:

In my experience in neighborly disputes, it's oftentimes the aggressor who ends up calling the police if he/she is unable to get their way in the argument.

What are you, a cop magnet?

TQL:

You are hopeless. Really, you are. LOL

I'm just askin the question is all. Anyone here play White golf? Black golf? Anyone? Bueller?
4.9.2008 10:13am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
What are you, a cop magnet?

Not really. But I saw the way my ex-wife's family and many of my neighbors handle things. It usually goes something like this:

1. Start an argument.
2. Become offended that the person argues back.
3. Get angry.
4. Call cops
5. Tell lies

They use the police to fight their battles for them once they realize they're in over their heads.
4.9.2008 10:22am
TQL:
I'm just askin the question is all. Anyone here play White golf? Black golf? Anyone? Bueller?

That has to be the dumbest question I have seen you ask on here. Tiger is a Black (or Cablinasian as he categorizes himself) man. Most of the people he plays against are White men. And, surprise(!), he beats them on a regular basis.

My comment on him beating White boys at golf on a regular basis stands.

...unless you are getting all color-blind, "I don't see color" on me. Which, if you are is an entirely separate issue.
4.9.2008 10:24am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
I'm just askin the question is all. Anyone here play White golf? Black golf? Anyone? Bueller?

I play Putt Putt because the balls are all different colors. It's like a mini-Rainbow Coalition of fun!
4.9.2008 10:33am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Whereas I prefer playing pool, where the white ball gets to knock around all the other balls of color and stripe. LOL
4.9.2008 10:47am
TQL:
Rosemary:
HA-HA!!!
4.9.2008 10:48am
Ara Rubyan (www):
You. Crack. Me. Up!
4.9.2008 11:07am
shep (mail):
"My comment on him beating White boys at golf on a regular basis stands."

I think it's right. But do you think that's why a McCain/Republican surrogate said, "You've got your Tiger Woods"? Because the leading Democratic nominee is good at beating the white boys? Hmmm.
4.9.2008 11:45am
Ara Rubyan (www):
That's not good, no matter how you slice it.
4.9.2008 12:17pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Don't any of you have a problem with speech being policed and ticketed?
4.9.2008 12:19pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Thank you Barry Obama – thank you for proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that you’re a typical liberal willing to pander to the fascist notion of “political correctness.”

It's like watching someone shouting angrily at an incoming tide.

Canute wasn't able to do it, but perhaps you will have more luck, Mr W.
4.9.2008 12:24pm
IB Bill (mail):
It's like watching someone shouting angrily at an incoming tide.

But even the incoming tide stops at the beach. As God said in the Book of Job, "You have come this far, but no farther."

:)
4.9.2008 12:38pm
IB Bill (mail):
Oops, the next line is even better: "Here your proud waves will stop."
4.9.2008 12:39pm
Rhianna (mail) (www):
Just a run-by posting as I'm in Naples and enjoying my vacation, but I just couldn't let this one pass.

I call my 4 year-old a "Monkey" on a regular basis. We discuss that monkeys eat bananas (one of her favorite fruit) and they act silly (just like her). Should I stop calling her a monkey because some jackass black person (OOOOOhhhh, I said the color word!!!) might get offended because their nose isn't in their business and their skin is too damn thin? Don't give a rat the answer, I'll still call my kid my little mommy-monkey and PCism be damned.

Words have NO power unless given power by the listener! Stop whining all the damn time and accept you do NOT have the right to not be offended.
4.9.2008 12:50pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
That's it, Rhianna! You just hurt my feelings. You can expect the Naples police to be paying you a visit very soon.
4.9.2008 12:53pm
shep (mail):
"Don't any of you have a problem with speech being policed and ticketed?"

I know I do. I just don't care what offends partisan idiots who couldn't recognize a real threat to free speech unless it threatened his delicate white sensibilities.
4.9.2008 1:31pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Don't any of you have a problem with speech being policed and ticketed?

The police were involved? They handed out a ticket?

Or was that exaggeration to make this seem more sinister than it really is?
4.9.2008 1:40pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Yes, the police were involved and she was issued a ticket. It's INSANE!
4.9.2008 1:45pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Yes, the police were involved and she was issued a ticket.

That'll teach me to not read the post. Okay, if that's the actual issue, then yes, that would be insane. But I'd be surprised to see the police handing out a ticket for just that. They're usually a bit more level-headed than that.

Are you sure there isn't more to the issue?
4.9.2008 1:54pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Are you sure there isn't more to the issue?

Not that I'm aware of, except that my research indicated the two ladies had some problems in the past, but the details of said "problems" were never brought to light.
4.9.2008 1:58pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Don't any of you have a problem with speech being policed and ticketed?

I might if that's what really happened. Except it probably isn't.

And not only that: the time that MW mentions is such a ridiculously minor case (hence the frothing outrage).

There are far worse cases where the real outrage should occur -- but doesn't.

And then there are the cases where someone is NOT sanctioned yet should be.

Best to just let it all go and remember Rhianna's advice: only you can give your permission for someone else to hurt your feelings.
4.9.2008 1:59pm
shep (mail):
"Yes, the police were involved and she was issued a ticket. It's INSANE!"

Sure, right up there with the Supreme Court outlawing the peaceful display of a banner or threatening to throw people in federal prison for the same “crime”. Your free speech rights – and a few other rather important Constitutional rights - are being shredded by your Republican government (IOKIYAR) but Mr. Pitiful picks a neighborhood dispute (stupid is as stupid does?) to whine about liberals and “political correctness.”

Everyone else gets it but you, Rosemary. He’s a dope and you make yourself look like a dope for giving him a soapbox and parroting his idiocy.
4.9.2008 2:01pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Shep:

I followed your link and read the article, but I disagree with you that that case was a threat to free speech. Clearly, it's an issue of trespassing and seemed to be handled accordingly.

That being said, perhaps you might be surprised to learn that my "delicate white sensibilities" have been offended for quite some time at the way the Han (majority) Chinese treat the Tibetans and all other ethno-linguistic miniorities that live within the borders of China. That would include groups such as the Manchus, Uighurs and Miao, just to name a few.

As always, the pleasure was all yours ...

Mr. Wonderful
4.9.2008 2:05pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Not that I'm aware of, except that my research indicated the two ladies had some problems in the past, but the details of said "problems" were never brought to light.

I my experience, these kind of events are generally minimally reported at the outset, followed by much delighted outrage on the blogs for a period, and then we discover something along the lines that she yelled at the cop, or threw something at the kids, or the like, and that was what generated the ticket.

Also keep in mind that you're not heroically standing up to state-sponsored political correctness here, you're tearing down the responding police officer's actions. The "state" didn't ticket her for speech elated issues, a cop did.

Now you may be comfortable attacking the hard-working members of the police force for doing their jobs, but don't expect me to applaud you while you do it.

Fucking hippy.
4.9.2008 2:08pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
And not only that: the time that MW mentions is such a ridiculously minor case (hence the frothing outrage).

A "ridiculously minor case" though it may be, it's hard to ignore the implications, Ara. Much like how Hate Crime legislation became enacted into law, this seems to me to be the beginning of legally validating Political Correctness. And as to other cases where free speech is being threatened, please enlighten me. I would be happy to review them and be equally outraged, even frothily so.
4.9.2008 2:09pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Now you may be comfortable attacking the hard-working members of the police force for doing their jobs, but don't expect me to applaud you while you do it.

Actually, I was attacking Obama's fearful, knee-jerk reaction, if anything. And in regards to the ticket, if there was more to the issue in which they issued it to her, then I will happily stand corrected. Until then, I blog with the information I have available to me at the time.

As to the "hippie" comment, I'm really at a loss with that one.
4.9.2008 2:12pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Actually, I was attacking Obama's fearful, knee-jerk reaction, if anything.

Mere propaganda and revisionism, Mr W. Or should I say "comrade W"?

Wasn't it you that said this?
The police apparently didn’t see it that way, and issued her a $75 ticket for “disorderly conduct, which they define as “When a person does something that alarms or disturbs another.”

...this situation illustrates in grave detail that the true threat to free speech in this country is not coming from the right, it’s coming from the left … and in juggernaut-like fashion. What’s even more disturbing is the insidious way in which the law and “propriety” were used to legally enforce political correctness, as if it were law.
4.9.2008 2:18pm
IB Bill (mail):
For my two cents:

1. I tend to suspend judgment on cases like these until all the facts come in. As ++UG said, often you find out there's more to it. For example, pissing off the police officer. If there isn't more to it, then yes, I'd be pretty outraged.

2. The Golden Gate protest -- well, I would have no problem with the minor charges, you know, disruption and trespassing, except that they're misdemeanors -- they should be disorderly persons charges. As far as the felony charge for conspiracy, give me an effing break. It'll probably be dismissed, but it's still serious over-charging. Is everything getting to be a felony now?
4.9.2008 2:19pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Don't get me wrong, Double ... I'm still not in favor of the ticket, provided it was issued solely on the grounds that the monkey comment hurt the mother's feelings.

No Comrade W here!
4.9.2008 2:21pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I'm still not in favor of the ticket, provided it was issued solely on the grounds that the monkey comment hurt the mother's feelings.

In other words, you want to overrule the police officer who was actually there, and was in the best position to decide on whether a law was broken.

Do you dislike police in general?
4.9.2008 2:37pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Everyone else gets it but you, Rosemary. He’s a dope and you make yourself look like a dope for giving him a soapbox and parroting his idiocy.

You know what? I said the exact same thing to Mark about you. It's rather funny if you ask me.

I keep Mr. W. around because he told me he has over a 1000 Uncle Glenn quotes and he will use one for every post, since I love those Uncle Glenn quotes, I really have little choice...
4.9.2008 2:42pm
shep (mail):
"As far as the felony charge for conspiracy, give me an effing break. It'll probably be dismissed, but it's still serious over-charging. Is everything getting to be a felony now?"

Exactly right, Bill. Probably because it was effective and we want to discourage that sort of thing. A clear example of the federal government attempting to suppress speech it finds threatening. But the Republican partisans, PC whiners and liberal haters have more important fish to fry.
4.9.2008 2:50pm
shep (mail):
"You know what? I said the exact same thing to Mark about you. It's rather funny if you ask me."

Well, since my very point was that you can't tell shit from Shinola, that is pretty funny.
4.9.2008 2:53pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
How did you know I told Mark your writing was akin to Shinola?
4.9.2008 3:00pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
I keep Mr. W. around because he told me he has over a 1000 Uncle Glenn quotes and he will use one for every post

Then by all means post at least 20 per day. That works out to 100 a week for 10 weeks or so. We'll be free and clear by summer.
4.9.2008 3:09pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
In other words, you want to overrule the police officer who was actually there, and was in the best position to decide on whether a law was broken.

Do you dislike police in general?


No, I don't dislike the police, in general. In fact, my brother is one of the "boys in blue," and my conversations with him provide me a very detailed, front-line view of the many challenges they face in the line of duty each day, both from the criminals, public perception and the often dunder-headed decisions made by commanding officers. (Stay tuned for a future blog on this very subject!)

That being said, I still say that if the cop issued Ramirez-Slawinski a ticket merely for making the "monkey" comment, then yes, I have a problem with that because I see it as a sneaky, back-door way to legally validate political correctness, as stated in my treatise on the subject.
4.9.2008 3:49pm
shep (mail):
"How did you know I told Mark your writing was akin to Shinola?"

Because it's the real deal? Anyway, you should at least have someone who understands the language check his punctuation and grammar so only the opinions will be an embarrassment.
4.9.2008 3:49pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
PC whiners and liberal haters have more important fish to fry.

As a matter of fact, we do, Shep. I'm grilling up a delicious piece of Alaskan salmon which I plan to serve with a vegetable medley. Should I save you some?
4.9.2008 3:51pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
That being said, I still say that if the cop issued Ramirez-Slawinski a ticket merely for making the "monkey" comment, then yes, I have a problem with that because I see it as a sneaky, back-door way to legally validate political correctness, as stated in my treatise on the subject.

You mean "legally validate political correctness" rather than "a single police officer overstepping his or her legal duties"?

That make your treatise too much of a tempest in a teapot. I admit that it's hard to take the moral high ground as a crusader against state-sanctioned political correctness if one just focuses in on the single police officer handing out tickets. Makes one look shrewish and scoldy instead, actually. So I understand the need to elaborate it somewhat.
4.9.2008 4:06pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Oh double! You words hurt me so.

Look at all the trees ... there's a forest there. I'm saying that the ticket, in addition to Barry's actions and the subsequent pressure from the Carpentersville Board of trustees - these are not coincidental random acts, but rather a systemic movement to enforce a specific code of morality - PC - that I take great umbrage with.
4.9.2008 4:25pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
...these are not coincidental random acts, but rather a systemic movement to enforce a specific code of morality - PC - that I take great umbrage with.

A sinister cabal of leftists intent on domination? Scary stuff indeed. I wonder how they got the police on their side?

Not shrewish or scoldy at all. Rather, worthy of a "treatise" of "great umbrage".

Heh heh. It is Ed Anger. Welcome back, bud, you've been missed.
4.9.2008 4:38pm
shep (mail):
"Shep. I'm grilling up a delicious piece of Alaskan salmon which I plan to serve with a vegetable medley. Should I save you some?"

Now that's just cruel.
4.9.2008 4:47pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Now that's just cruel.

Sorry! I forgot you liberals are vegetarians. Well, how 'bout just the vegetable medley then?
4.9.2008 4:51pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
A sinister cabal of leftists intent on domination? Scary stuff indeed. I wonder how they got the police on their side?

I suppose that Hate Crime legislation is just a myth, too ...
4.9.2008 4:52pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
By the way, as a leftist of long standing, I should point out that the term "political correctness" as a critical terms for excessive orthodoxy to a political left-wing ideal was first popularized by .. .drumroll ... the left.

I remember it in popular left-wing use in the late seventies to lampoon robo-leftists of the time. And Wikipedia backs this up:
Yet, soon afterwards, the New Left re-appropriated the term political correctness as satirical self-criticism; per Debra Shultz: "Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the New Left, feminists, and progressives ... used their term politically correct ironically, as a guard against their own orthodoxy in social change efforts".[11][1][2] Hence the phrase's popular usage in English [2] and Bobby London's usage in the underground comic book Merton of the Movement, while the alternative term, ideologically sound, followed a like lexical path, appearing in Bart Dickon's satirical comic strips.

In typical left-wing usage, Ellen Willis says: "in the early '80s, when feminists used the term political correctness it was used to refer sarcastically to the anti-pornography movement's efforts to define a 'feminist sexuality' ".[12]
So, you right wingers? Quit using our term. Come up with your own.
4.9.2008 4:54pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
I suppose that Hate Crime legislation is just a myth, too ...

A myth? Nope, more signs of a communist conspiracy, I'd say. They're under my bed too.
4.9.2008 4:55pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
So, you right wingers? Quit using our term. Come up with your own.

Fair enough ... I nominate "fascist liberal bullshit" as my new term of choice.

Thanks, double!
4.9.2008 5:06pm
IB Bill (mail):
You're denying the sinister cabal of leftists? Of course there's a cabal. There's always a cabal.

PC was indeed a leftist term used to distinguish between sex-pozzies and sex-neggies in the feminist movement.

I'm not going anywhere with this. Must need more coffee. Or wings. A good night for Buffalo Wings on the way home.
4.9.2008 5:09pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Fair enough ... I nominate "fascist liberal bullshit" as my new term of choice.

Excellent choice. Well, other than the obvious confusion about what the word "fascist" means, but as I assume that you are trying to portray the persona of an ignorant right-wing O'Riellyesque kneejerk twatheaded wingnut, and this suits the facade, it's perfect.
4.9.2008 5:10pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
PC was indeed a leftist term used to distinguish between sex-pozzies and sex-neggies in the feminist movement.

Nope, it wasn't. It was used in exactly the same way that the right wing uses it now.

For example, late seventies, at the weekly meeting of the "People's Committee to Live on Our Knees Forever":

Comrade Smith: "I'd like to ask the collective to consider how much longer society needs to live under the oppressive heel of the capitalist businessman, how much..."

Another comrade: "Or businessWOMAN".

Yet another comrade: "BusinessWOMYN!"

First comrade: "Why not business-person?"

Comrade Smith (whispering to comrade Jones): "Aw shit, not more of this politically correct bullshit. We'll be hear all night."
4.9.2008 5:16pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
...or "here" all night.
4.9.2008 5:17pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
What confusion, double ... fascism is an extreme political ideology that is born from the left, not the right.
4.9.2008 5:47pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
What confusion, double ... fascism is an extreme political ideology that is born from the left, not the right.

Ah yes, that canard, well-beloved by the truly politically ignorant. This confusion about the ideology was enjoyed by Hitler, who mocked those who thought that fascism and Nazism were left-wing.

I've heard it all before, some of it here, but what on earth makes this anti-leftist corporatist ideology so leftist? And, for that matter, what type of leftism? Marxist? Fabianist? Utopian? Social-democratic? Anarchist?

Enlighten us, oh bright one.
4.9.2008 5:57pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
...and Rose put you up to that question, didn't she?
4.9.2008 6:33pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
For the record, it appears that Linda Ramirez-Sliwinski was not asked to resign, and is not going to.

So much for the crusade.
4.9.2008 6:54pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
How the hell did I get dragged into this train wreck of a pissing match? I was content to eat popcorn on this one along with Jerry K. (Yes you Jerry, you're now a part of this ugliness even if you are just lurking. I know you're out there.)

Since you lied, lied, lied about what you said to me Rose, for the record, you made Shep a front pager here before I made him my co-blogger, (and I believe he was at Ara's before either of us, but I could be wrong) and you never criticized his writing abilities to my recollection. Truth be told, and forgive me for F'ing up your rep, you've always had nice things to say about Shep behind his back.

Shep, I just fixed a typo on your last post at my blog. Hope you don't mind buddy. I got your back. See Rose, I take care of my co-bloggers. ;-)

More on topic, why does Herr Wunderbar hate black people? Or is it monkeys he hates? Cops? Obnoxious neighbors? His writing is so scatter-brained it's hard to keep track of who he's hating today.

I'll go out on a limb with those kids in the tree and say this woman's shouting at the "monkeys" was neither the beginning nor the end of an ongoing conflict with this caustic woman who could not even find an ally to defend her political position since she's evidently a pain in the ass to be around -- kind of like if you were trapped sitting next to someone like MW on a cross-country bus trip. (Sitting in the politically correct seats of course.)

DPU, I think I'm starting to "get" it. I'm pretty sure I don't like it, but since Colbert is too busy to play in our swamp, MW as a cardboard cut-out substitute is as close as we can get to an interactive blog friendly Archie Bunker to throw feces at.

Not my particularly favorite game, but I do believe I get it.
4.9.2008 7:02pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
DPU, I think I'm starting to "get" it.

I was pretty damn sure that it was Tim punking us for a while...
4.9.2008 7:10pm
shep (mail):
"Shep, I just fixed a typo on your last post at my blog. Hope you don't mind buddy. I got your back. See Rose, I take care of my co-bloggers. ;-)"

Thanks, buddy. I may be illiterate but I have the good sense to know where to post up.


"More on topic, why does Herr Wunderbar hate black people? Or is it monkeys he hates? Cops? Obnoxious neighbors? His writing is so scatter-brained it's hard to keep track of who he's hating today.

I'll go out on a limb with those kids in the tree and say this woman's shouting at the "monkeys" was neither the beginning nor the end of an ongoing conflict with this caustic woman who could not even find an ally to defend her political position since she's evidently a pain in the ass to be around -- kind of like if you were trapped sitting next to someone like MW on a cross-country bus trip."


When you put it that way, it makes me wonder if Mr. Wonderbra isn't just secretly jealous.
4.9.2008 7:20pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Mark,

Stop making it sound like I'm nice. I'm EVIL and don't you forget it.

Okay, so maybe I never actually said Shep was a shitty writer...
4.9.2008 7:44pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
See Rose, I take care of my co-bloggers. ;-)

I'd be willing to bet you a $1000 right now, that I take care of Mr. W better than you take care of Shep... ;-)
4.9.2008 7:50pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Double,

I didn't have to put him up to anything. Mr. W and I just happen to agree on the subject of Liberal Fascism...
4.9.2008 7:55pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Oh no. You did not just link to Goldberg's book as evidence, did you?

I'm still waiting for someone to try an explain why they think that fascism is related to socialism or liberalism. It's pretty pointless, as the differences are explained very clearly in most introductory political science courses.

But why let facts get in the way of an opinion?
4.9.2008 8:00pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
I'd be willing to bet you a $1000 right now, that I take care of Mr. W better than you take care of Shep... ;-)
I know you two are close, but ... eeeww. No bet.
4.9.2008 8:02pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Mr. W and I just happen to agree on the subject of Liberal Fascism...
Then you are A.) ill informed, B.) purposely and provocatively ignorant, C.) deliberately antagonistic, D.) a blogofascist in fabulous strapless pumps.
4.9.2008 8:08pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
J0nah G0ldberg? Noooooooo!
4.9.2008 8:10pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Man! I got three of you with one little linky!

AWESOME

For the record, I am C and a little bit D. I do have fabulous strapless pumps. I'm a woman and I have shoes, baby!

You sure you don't want to bet, Mark? LOL
4.9.2008 8:23pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Like I'm sure someone's Uncle Glenn would tell you, never bet against the house, and always bet on black. So, no bet.
4.9.2008 8:53pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
It occurs that even Rose will use Goldberg as a punchline and knows better than to take him seriously.
4.9.2008 9:02pm
shep (mail):
"Mr. W and I just happen to agree on the subject of Liberal Fascism..."

Well, you two are nothing if not "contrary to conventional wisdom." Or wisdom of any kind for that matter.

I sure hope he's better than his blogging. Um, never mind, please don't reply to that.
4.9.2008 9:10pm
shep (mail):
And make it and even four.
4.9.2008 9:11pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Oh for Christ's sakes! When we have an opinion, we're wrong. When we cite sources, those sources are wrong. When we prove points, you resort to name calling. There's three points for the good guys, right there. Should I continue?

Okay. Just off the top of my head, and without having done any exhaustive research (I just got back from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I'm tired, okay!), here's why I would liken liberalism to fascism.

1. An aversion to free speech.
2. An aversion and extreme hatred of religion.
3. Gun control, and lots of it.
4. Big government, and I mean BIG. Like, the government being involved in every aspect of our lives.

In laymen's terms, these are things that liberals tend to stand for. These are also things that Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler stood for ... and implemented.

Now, go ahead and call me what you will. It's time for dinner and I'm starved ...
4.9.2008 9:26pm
shep (mail):
"When we cite sources, those sources are wrong."

I quoted your source, pinhead. Your four points are a conservative cartoon of liberalism, the same one that's been around since you were sitting in your own shit - oh, right. Anyway, after you get done stuffing your face, pull your head out of the elephant's ass and take a look around. You'll be quite surprised at what the real world looks like.
4.9.2008 9:53pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Oh for Christ's sakes! When we have an opinion, we're wrong.
You should have stopped right there while you were ahead.
4.9.2008 10:11pm
Ara Rubyan (www):
Oh for Christ's sakes! When we have an opinion, we're wrong. When we cite sources, those sources are wrong. When we prove points, you resort to name calling. There's three points for the good guys, right there. Should I continue?

No.
4.9.2008 10:16pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
1. An aversion to free speech.

Oh, bullshit. Even if liberalism were opposed to free speech (it isn't), that isn't a symptom of fascism. It's a symptom of authoritarianism. Fail.

2. An aversion and extreme hatred of religion.

You think Italian fascism was anti-religion? Don't be a fool. Nazism? Wrong again. Spanish fascism? Don't make me laugh. Fail twice.

3. Gun control, and lots of it.

What. The. Fuck? You're going to argue that gun control makes a nation fascist? Was there gun control in Fascist Spain and Fascist Italy? FAIL.

4. Big government, and I mean BIG. Like, the government being involved in every aspect of our lives.

You have confused two differing ideologies, fascism and authoritarianism. Fascism is authoritarian, but not every authoritarian government is fascist. Again, this is pretty basic polisci. I'm guessing that isn't one of your areas of expertise. And liberalism is at the opposite end of the scale, unless you think that things like civil liberties and a free press are authoritarian. Once again, fail.

Want to try again?

Dude, I earnestly hope that this whole Mr Wonderful is a put-on, because if it isn't, well, I'm worried, because those were really dumb arguments. Seriously.

When we cite sources, those sources are wrong.

Goldberg is a source that you think credible? Maybe for half-assed and ridiculous opinions. Or are you suggesting that his book is being used in political science courses?
4.9.2008 10:20pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
So you know, you can't prove your idiotic opinion is right by listing utterly dumb opinions you hold dear.
4.9.2008 10:21pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Thanks for the input. Allow me to redirect - instead of political correctness, I shall use the term "authoritarian liberal fascist bullshit."

I'm glad we got that cleared up!
4.9.2008 10:30pm
Jerry K. :
Damn.. 83 responses and I'm out of popcorn.. I guess I need a refill..
4.9.2008 10:33pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Thanks for the input. Allow me to redirect - instead of political correctness, I shall use the term "authoritarian liberal fascist bullshit."

Why not use "crypto-fascist"? It's not accurate (or even close) but neither is ""authoritarian liberal fascist bullshit". But the former will make you sound more like an in-tell-eck-shoo-al. Besides, there's precedent.
4.9.2008 10:36pm
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Oh, look... The gang's all here!

Welcome back Jerry. ;-)
4.9.2008 10:36pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Yes ... I knew it wouldn't take long for the Unholy Alliance to show up. LOL
4.9.2008 10:44pm
matoko_chan (mail):
i dislike Goldberg and he hates me.
we got into a recent gmail fight about those mean cowardly intolerant darwin fishes.

i'll see ur darwin fishes and raise u a Wedge Strategy and an Expelled mr. goldberg.
there is a reason the highly educated have antipathy for religious conservatives (theocons).
4.9.2008 11:52pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
I think the best takedown on Goldberg's foolishness was from Dave Neiwert at Orcinus who has been outstanding in his scholarly study of just how wrong, wrong, wrong Goldberg is. Spencer Ackerman has been doing journeyman work desconstructing Goldberg as well.

But for our purposes, I think HTML Mencken nails it when he describes what Goldberg's book is really all about.:
It’s not about arguing over history at all; it’s about putting ammo — dishonest, historically illiterate ammo, to be sure, but then these people don’t care — into the hands of legions of True Believers. And no amount of incisive, historically informed criticism will stop it; if anything, the more we lefties prove that Jonah’s book is a pile of dogshit, the more we confirm wingnuts’ belief that it’s pure gold. Twenty years from now trolls will cite that renowned, famously persecuted scholar Jonah Goldberg in calling our kind Hitler’s descendants.
I'd also recommend his analysis of Goldberg as the quasi-fascist type of conservative that are now running things compared to the quintessential anti-fascist, compassionate yet unflinching laissez-faire conservative Herbert Hoover was.

If you take anything from his analysis, it's this. "Hoover, in the 1920s, anticipated the defining trait of all varieties of fascism: that it is always a furious and irrational reaction to some variety of socialism." That is, even watered down socialism like the moderate liberals that inhabit the Democratic Party are met with vitriolic reactionary fascist opposition. One spawns the other and they are and always will be opposites.
Yet — and this is where Pantload is especially slippery — fascism, because it is jealous of the power of socialist governments, often appropriates or parodies its administering traits; it admires socialism’s control, but not its aims. In the worst form of socialism, the aim was still to uplift a suffering class; enemies of this project were ‘liquidated’ of course, but the point is that the enemies were a secondary concern to the first which was, at least (and often, only) in theory, positive. But in fascism this is flipped: the primary concern is eradicating the enemy within — or without.
Ever notice that conservatives always define themselves as what and who they are against. Their raison d'entre is to eliminate an enemy or an evil. More often than not, it's something socialistic, even if it's disaster relief which they would privatize instead of be responsible administrators of assistance to those in need.

They really aren't "for" anything. Not even "for" free speech, just against their stupid ideas getting shouted down in the public forum, crying they too are victims of fascist tactics so they can dilute the insidious nature of their own methods.

It's all about expanding the lexicon of right wing slurs while disarming the left of one of it's most effective and stark examples of the consequences of conservatism run amok. Actual political analysis or historical accuracy is unnecessary, indeed it is inconvenient.

I think the whole thing started when the hard-core leftist Gore Vidal acted like a rhetorical terrorist and called William Buckley Jr. a crypto-nazi, and the label stuck despite or maybe because Buckley's weak reply was to call Vidal a queer. Now Goldberg is an editor at large at Buckley's National Review and 40 years later that institution is still looking to get even.
4.10.2008 1:29am
Tim (mail):
I like Arnie better than Mr. W.
4.10.2008 1:32am
shep (mail):
"...I shall use the term 'authoritarian liberal fascist bullshit.'"

Regardless, even the full-blown, ridiculous, conservative cartoon of liberalism, is Peanuts compared to the actual, dreadful, conservative Republican, “…political and economic sphere [...] throughout the length and breadth of the country by means of its corporate, social, and educational institutions, and all the political, economic, and spiritual forces of the nation,” fascism and beam-in-your-eye, elitist, corporatist-enabling, Constitution-shredding, war criminal, lawless, lying, conniving, go-fuck-yourself authoritarianism, ignored for the sake of the splinter of 70s liberal overreach, renders you, quite literally, for all intellectual and psychological purposes, retarded.
4.10.2008 1:37am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Their raison d'entre is to eliminate an enemy or an evil.

I'll remember that the next time I get accused of racism, fascism or any other "ism" by you liberals. LOL
4.10.2008 5:13am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Their raison d'entre is to eliminate an enemy or an evil.

Really? I gotta remember that the next time I get accused of racism, fascism or any other "ism" by you liberals. LOL
4.10.2008 5:13am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Redundant much, or often, or again and again?

Labeling a cowardly or intellectually dishonest screed as some kind of "ism" is not the eliminationist tactic. Merely equating thugish behavior with it's appropriate phenomenon. Your casual racist and/or fascist tendencies, Mr. W, as well as your pitiful attempt at informed discourse and complete disregard for logical processes are what they are. Your disingenuous tactic of resorting to victimhood is classically fascist as well.

Tim, I almost, but not quite agree with you. Arnie's very purpose here was not to be a foil, a bright red target upon which we could vent, but to actually bring all comers down to the gutter. Arnie was simply mean. W, insults our intelligence and is proudly stupid, but his motive (I don't think) is not to prove how hateful he can be or to trade rhetorical barbs, but to justify his deeply held yet misguided ideology (such as it is) as unworthy of the ridicule and scorn he no doubt has endured for a long time.

W wants to prove he is right instead of looking within to see and correct what is so very wrong about his world-view, yet I see the smallest indication there might be a gleam of intellectual curiosity there. Arnie had no such abilities and simply could not carry on a conversation, spamming all threads with his bile and stalk all the commenters here in such a rude way no topic could be discussed except what the punk wanted to talk about. He was sick, as opposed to W, who is just proudly and purposely ignorant.
4.10.2008 7:47am
Ara Rubyan (www):
OK, here's the thing: Mr. W == you're boring.

You're trite, hackneyed and unoriginal. You like to think you have a sense of humor (and god knows maybe you do in person), but I'll be blunt: it doesn't come across on the page.

Not only that: you're shallow and arrogant, a dangerous combination in someone who wants people to pay attention to him, which as far as I can tell is the sole reason for you being here.

Rose: you like liberal baiting right? I'm here to tell you I'm bored with this guy's routine. He's a one-note soloist (even the charm of Uncle Glenn, aka Archie Bunker, has worn thin). It's too easy to dismiss his brand of idiocy. I'm tired of doing it already.

On the other hand, I can see why you like him: he's Dean Esmay with humor (which ain't saying much). But he has the same distressing propensity that Dean had to be precociously contrary, too-clever-by-half, and counter-intuitive to the point of sheer stupidity. But he makes up for that by being a racist which, truth be told, Dean wasn't (or rather he hid it more artfully than Mr. Wonderbra, who revels in it).

Enough already. Dial him back... a lot. You're interesting and refreshing. He is stale and boring. And in the end, you're going to dump him anyway. Do it now before he gets the best end of the deal.
4.10.2008 8:06am
matoko_chan (mail):
hmmm......if the dems are liberalfascists what are these ppl? theofascists?
from the wiki


The Wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions"[2] and to "affirm the reality of God."[3] Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4]

The wedge metaphor, attributed to Phillip E. Johnson, is that of a metal wedge splitting a log and represents using an aggressive public relations programme to create an opening for the supernatural in the public’s understanding of science.[5]

Intelligent design is the belief that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not a naturalistic process such as natural selection. Implicit in the intelligent design doctrine is a redefining of science and how it is conducted. Wedge strategy proponents are dogmatically opposed to materialism,[6][7][8] naturalism,[7][9] and evolution,[10][11][12][13] and have made the removal of each from how science is conducted and taught an explicit goal.[14][15]

The strategy was originally brought to the public's attention when the Wedge Document was leaked on the Web. The Wedge strategy forms the governing basis of a wide range of Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns
4.10.2008 8:43am
Jerry K. :
*YAWN* only 15 more posts?? It must have been a slow night..
4.10.2008 9:02am
Ara Rubyan (www):
if the dems are liberalfascists what are these ppl? theofascists?

American Taliban.
4.10.2008 9:23am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Actually Jerry, I was working on a draft for tomorrow's posts at American Street and thought I'd share.
4.10.2008 9:24am
matoko_chan (mail):
1. An aversion to free speech.
The theofascists want the Vchip and restriction of media sex and violence. Also internet police.

2. An aversion and extreme hatred of religion.
Theofascists have extreme hatred and aversion for EVERY religion except their own.

3. Gun control, and lots of it.
The theofascists are all for controlling guns....for everyone but themselves.

4. Big government, and I mean BIG. Like, the government being involved in every aspect of our lives.
The theofascists want to tell us wat to think, ie samesexmarriage and abortion rights.
Theofascists want to destroy the public school system so they can implement better thought control in private schools, AND have the government fund their religious schools by paying for school vouchers. The theofascists want government to fund their religious values and force them into the lives of all citizens.
4.10.2008 9:37am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Wow, I'm find that the more Matoko conforms to coherent English I not only understand her more, I agree with her as well.

Thnx 4 teh F-ort M. Gud stuf.

kthxbai
4.10.2008 9:42am
matoko_chan (mail):
here, Mark.
Just for you.

Rise of the Theofascists
4.10.2008 9:58am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Must be service pack 3 -- you know Matoko is much clearer and easier to understand now.
4.10.2008 10:00am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Matoko:

You liked Snow Crash; how about Cryptonomicon?
4.10.2008 10:03am
IB Bill (mail):
Sure enough, I stopped by on the way home and had wings and some French Onion soup at Outback, just as I said I would. But it looks like y'all had much more fun breaking furniture over each others' heads.

Of course, as a conservative Roman Catholic, I am part of a sinister cabal to impose our beliefs on everyone, and to use American government power to do it. We meet on Tuesday evening at 7 p.m. in the parish basement and, if all goes according to plan, are scheduled complete our nefarious scheme for world domination by Jan. 1, 2017.

BTW, you should know that the plan so far is working flawlessly and we're actually six months ahead of schedule. Many of you are unwittingly doing our bidding even as you post here. I admit, though, in the last meeting we got bogged down about whether we should give non-believers the option of "convert or die" or merely put you all in camps.

*****

Seriously, though, if you want to have a productive discussion, defining terms is critical. While I hold fascism and national socialism are inherently left-wing, that's according to how I define left-wing. Another could easily create their own paradigm and put all that on the right. It's a bit of a side issue, though, to start arguing about the mental map you built instead of focusing on the core issue -- which is the use of government power on a host of economic and social issues.

Steve Malcolm Anderson, PBUH, would normally chime in now with one of his various schema on political opinions here.

For example, when I say I'm conservative, that doesn't mean I'm somehow in favor of corporations and the government being in bed together. I agree with the liberal arguments about bailing out corporations which on one hand want small government and then turn around and want a hand out to protect their own poor decision-making.

And while I don't like welfare statism, that doesn't mean I'd eliminate the welfare state. I'm concerned about abuse and fostering dependency. Doesn't mean I'd take away the safety net.

I agree that our healthcare system is a mess -- in fact, one reason people didn't sense an economic boom in the last six years was their wages were flat -- economic growth got sucked up in increased healthcare costs (and gas, too).

So I'd be open to new ideas. I think in some ways our system works, and in other ways it's the worst of both worlds -- it's either not market-driven enough, or not socialist enough. I'd be open to discussion, in particular, of the French system and whether something similar could be transferred to the U.S. Yes, I'm an open Francophile, even though the French are annoying in many ways.

I am concerned about secret courts and secret prisons, and think that some of the Bush/Cheney actions in this sense only work in a limited, clearly defined war. But Bush/Cheney declared an open-ended war where few people can see what the victory state looks like, and then took actions that were more appropriate for a war fought against another nation-state with the victory state being unconditional surrender.

Yes, the military/industrial/entertainment complex is worrying.

Blah blah blah. You get the idea.

*****

By the way, Ara, I noticed Dean Esmay's tendency to fall in love with the counterintuitive and saw it as his fatal flaw. The man just couldn't believe that the conventional wisdom could be correct. As I wrote on my blog back in the day, there's counterintuitive and then there's bullshit. A good writer needs to be able to tell the difference.
4.10.2008 10:24am
matoko_chan (mail):
Crypt is one of my favorites.
Stephenson sums me up here.


"...you just stared through the cosmetic distractions and saw the underlying mathematical skeleton. Once you found the math in a thing, you knew everything about it, and you could manipulate it to your heart's content with nothing more than a pencil and a napkin."


there is a new one!
O frabjous joy!
4.10.2008 10:31am
Ara Rubyan (www):
IB Bill:

We meet on Tuesday evening at 7 p.m. in the parish basement and...[we]are scheduled complete our nefarious scheme for world domination by Jan. 1, 2017.

Slacker. The Jews meet every other day in the conference room at the local Jewish Community Center. We're ahead of schedule and we'll have completed our plan for world domination by mid-August, 2011 (just in time for the High Holy Days).

For example, when I say I'm conservative, that doesn't mean I'm somehow in favor of corporations and the government being in bed together.

Heavens to Betsy, no. THAT would be fascism. Luckily that will never happen here.

one reason people didn't sense an economic boom in the last six years was their wages were flat -- economic growth got sucked up in increased healthcare costs (and gas, too).

That's putting it mildly. P.S. don't forget food and education costs as well.

Yes, the military/industrial/entertainment complex is worrying.


WTF is that -- video games?

there's counterintuitive and then there's bullshit. A good writer needs to be able to tell the difference.

I hear you.
4.10.2008 10:37am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Rose: you like liberal baiting right? I'm here to tell you I'm bored with this guy's routine. He's a one-note soloist (even the charm of Uncle Glenn, aka Archie Bunker, has worn thin). It's too easy to dismiss his brand of idiocy. I'm tired of doing it already.

Do you know how many times I've been told that I'm a one note liberal bater? A lot. People who disagree with my views and refuse to believe that I could possibly see things differently than they do...do it all the time.


On the other hand, I can see why you like him: he's Dean Esmay with humor (which ain't saying much). But he has the same distressing propensity that Dean had to be precociously contrary, too-clever-by-half, and counter-intuitive to the point of sheer stupidity. But he makes up for that by being a racist which, truth be told, Dean wasn't (or rather he hid it more artfully than Mr. Wonderbra, who revels in it).

THAT is an insult I can't let stand. It's one thing when you guys suggest I'm SPoDE-like but entirely different when you say it about someone you barely know and have given yourself little opportunity to get to know. First, when SPoDE did write anything beyond two sentences it was never clever. The rest of what you said is true of SPoDE but NOT of Mr. Wonderful. Wonderful's writings are clever, very intuitive, not stupid in anyway and not racist. The problem you guys are having is that Mr. Wonderful has a different view and because he sees things differently than you - he's stupid and a racist according to you. Of course, so am I... right? SPoDE is an egomaniac and like most liberals, he preferred to silence his critics rather than discuss. He preferred to lash out and ban rather than concede that someone besides himself may have a point, ever.

Enough already. Dial him back... a lot. You're interesting and refreshing. He is stale and boring. And in the end, you're going to dump him anyway. Do it now before he gets the best end of the deal.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here. What I do or don't do is for me to decide and since this is starting to get rather personal, I'm not going to say more than that. I will add that I never listen to long distance psychoanalysis. A good friend told me that advice once and I believe it was the best advice he ever gave me.
4.10.2008 10:40am
Ara Rubyan (www):
Matoko:

Once you found the math in a thing, you knew everything about it

That's you, eh? I thought so! I dug Stephenson's book, too.

We'll have to talk sometime about how it is that the greatest mathemeticians flame out by the time they reach their mid-20's.

And, yes, I'm looking forward to reading his latest.
4.10.2008 10:43am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Oh and let me add, he writes a post that discusses how people's adherence to political correctness interferes with free speech and a marketplace of ideas. What's the first you all do? Scream "Ban Him" or dump him, etc from the highest mountain.

And you guys say Liberals are not fascists! You are proving his whole point. LOL
4.10.2008 10:43am
matoko_chan (mail):
i think Mr. Wunnerful is great!
but i'm not a guy.
;)
4.10.2008 10:47am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
matoko,

You don't think he's like my ex, do you?
4.10.2008 10:52am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Yay Matoko!

Hey Bill. I hate to break it to you, but you only wish you were a conservative if all you say is true. As for your idea that national socialism and fascism are phenomenon of the left, sadly that is only wishful thinking as well.

In your quest to be open-minded, by embracing Goldberg's thesis you've fallen into the counter-intuitive trap you describe by not sniffing around enough. It's absolute malarkey and stinks of bullshit. You just have to wade through a lot of old, dried-up manure to get to the fresh, squishy stuff.

The real clue is that extreme liberalism, as exemplified by leftist socialism would do away with corporate structures entirely. The proletariat owning the means of production and all that Marxist utopian drivel. Fascism brings corporations into the government power structure as an equal partner. Polar opposite positions, completely incompatable ideologies.

The fact that they both exhibit undesirable authoritarian tactics to control society is a bug, not a feature of both Nazism and it's nemesis, communism. Extremes are always bad, mkay?

It always comes down to monetary policy and control of resources. All politics can be boiled down to that since in it's rawest form politics is the distribution of scarce resources. Fascism and Socialism create incompatible structures to control and allocate those resources.
4.10.2008 10:53am
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Wow! Apparently, I've touched a nerve.
4.10.2008 11:02am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Wow! Apparently, I've touched a nerve.
You're touching something alright, it's just that only the most perverted enjoy watching someone else masturbate, even if it's only mental self-abuse.
4.10.2008 11:05am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Rose, when I first read Mr. W, I had to consciously suppress my instinctive reaction that you had somehow reconciled with Dean and foisted him upon us in disguise. I knew better, rationally, and I knew you and the situation. So I knew it couldn't be true.

But truth be told, that was indeed my first impression, that this guy was Dean in some kind of twisted probationary role.
4.10.2008 11:09am
IB Bill (mail):
Slacker. The Jews meet every other day in the conference room at the local Jewish Community Center. We're ahead of schedule and we'll have completed our plan for world domination by mid-August, 2011 (just in time for the High Holy Days).

Yes, we know. Your plan is all part of our plan :) Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.
4.10.2008 11:14am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Wow. Maybe it is simply the outspoken conservative nature that conjures up that image.

As I mentioned, I've been accused of sounding like SPoDE - so maybe it's just that you guys use that as a measure for disagreement.

I'll tell you this, the suggestion that Mr. W is SPoDEish made my Mom outraged. Clearly, those of us that know them both can see the night and day differences that may be missed when only interpreting the written word.
4.10.2008 11:15am
IB Bill (mail):
I don't think Dean and Mr. W are remotely alike, and that's not a criticism of either of them.
4.10.2008 11:24am
Rosemary, Queen of All Evil (mail):
Glad to hear it. I don't either but hey, what do I know?
4.10.2008 11:26am
IB Bill (mail):
Mark,

My point is that arguing about the mental map isn't as important as discussing specific issues. I think it's naturally conservative to distrust concentrations of power, whether corporate, government, or other kinds. You may call that liberal. Fair enough.

But I did detect some leftism when you said that politics is about distributing scarce resources. Actually, that's the textbook definition of economics. Economic policy (politics, that is) is about how much and when to intervene in markets. And I tend to be a little more interventionist about markets than many of my conservative friends.

Cheers, Bill
4.10.2008 11:29am
matoko_chan (mail):
Mr. Wunnerful is nuthin like that gutless poseur.
4.10.2008 11:49am
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Bill, economics confines it's "politics" to monetary policy, market influences and resource/product distribution. It's a subset of politics which also includes safety regulations and personal behaviors for example. However, the enforcement of policy, which is the only thing that actually matters, is essentially an economic determination.

You can make it the policy that lead paint won't be in kids' toys, but unless you fund an enforcement regime and hire the inspectors, the politics is so much empty rhetoric without the limited resources of the government partitioned to make sure our kids stay safe. It's a mixed bag to be sure, but since economics are so intimately entwined in the effectiveness of the state (small "S") whether it is organized more to the right or more to the left makes a difference.

The more extreme to the right you go, the more efficient the system since the powerful economic entities (corporations) work hand in glove with the government's enforcement regime. The left's concern with individual protection and economic justice is directly at odds with corporate interests, so efficiency suffers along with the profits of government's corporate partners as the individual prerogatives become more important within a more controlled/regulated financial structure.

Extremes of both kind are always, always bad. The effect on an individual who sees his freedom interfered with is the same from his perspective since he doesn't care about the cause. That freedom must be protected and that is our governments sacred challenge.

However, in studying how an advanced, industrialized nation with a well educated population was seduced by fascist nationalism and comparing where communism took hold in a more backward agrarian society that knew nothing of democratic institutions, my ongoing fear is that our society has much more in common with Germany than Russia, and faces the same siren's song.

If we ever turn into an authoritarian regime where all rights to express ourselves are eliminated, I believe it is much more likely because we gave into fascism than brought about a socialist revolution. It's the nature of who we are that poses the greater danger.
4.10.2008 12:00pm
Mark Adams, who's always correct, get used to it. (mail) (www):
Clearly, those of us that know them both can see the night and day differences that may be missed when only interpreting the written word.
What part of Eddie Izzard's discourse on the nature of non-verbal communication didn't you understand? Or for that matter, Wince's dissertation of the necessity of the Winke?

You naturally perceive Mr. W though your prism of knowing him in person, his mannerisms, his tone, the lilt of his voice and import of his gestures.

We got none of that in this limited media that filters out all but what is written, unmodified and imperfect. You've been accusing us of not giving him a break. He personally may or may not have deserved one. But the words on my monitor deserved no slack and none was requested by their author.

come on Rose. You're not new to this.
4.10.2008 12:17pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
And you guys say Liberals are not fascists! You are proving his whole point. LOL

If arguing with some colossally dumb arguments is fascist, then I better start goose stepping. And, for the record, wanting someone banned from a forum (a position that I think you know I disagree with) does not make one a fascist. Not even close.

Were you okay with those that labeled Bush a fascist? No? Then why tolerate this idiocy of labeling the entire liberal ideology fascist? It's not only embarrassingly incorrect, it's hypocritical.

I don't think Mr W is the same as another blogger with some history here, but I gotta tell you, the pretension of knowing a lot about something while displaying next to no knowledge about it whatsoever are ringing quite a few alarm bells.

Also, when I read this from him: I'll remember that the next time I get accused of racism, fascism or any other "ism" by you liberals. LOL - it reminds me quite strongly of someone else's persecution complex. I don't remember who, offhand.
4.10.2008 12:39pm
shep (mail):
"…the core issue -- which is the use of government power on a host of economic and social issues."

Exactly right again, Bill. And liberals consistently try use government power to limit the government’s ability to reduce individual liberty and conservatives consistently try to use government power to limit the government’s ability to deal with social and economic issues and, certainly under the Bush/Cheney regime, to expand government power (and secrecy) to reduce individual liberty. Who are the fascists?



"Once you found the math in a thing, you knew everything about it."

Matoko, my Dad would have loved conversing with you.


"Slacker. The Jews meet every other day in the conference room at the local Jewish Community Center. We're ahead of schedule and we'll have completed our plan for world domination by mid-August, 2011 (just in time for the High Holy Days)."

Crap. The Agnostics can’t decide where to meet.


"Wonderful's writings are clever, very intuitive, not stupid in anyway and not racist."

No. Ability. To. Discern.
4.10.2008 12:40pm
shep (mail):
"...it reminds me quite strongly of someone else's persecution complex. I don't remember who, offhand."

Don't make too much of that, ++. The entire right-wing of this country is one giant persecution complex. It's their zeitgeist and their raison d'être. As Mark said, it's all about who they're against today (although they're always reliably against liberals and liberalism). Reactionary paranoids. All of them.
4.10.2008 12:47pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Persecution complex? I love it! This gets better every minute. Keep 'em coming, guys!
4.10.2008 5:36pm
double-plus-ungood (mail) (www):
Persecution complex? I love it!

Paging Dr Von Ego, Dr Von Ego to the lobby.

I didn't say that you had a persecution complex. Read it again.
4.10.2008 6:05pm
shep (mail):
Wasn't this the same maroon who just trying to tar one guy by shouting down a guy that guy knows from church as un-American because the second guy criticized American racism to a black congregation. But he just detests political correctness. What's the word for that again? Oh, right.
4.10.2008 7:03pm
Mr. Wonderful (mail):
Wasn't this the same maroon who just trying to tar one guy by shouting down a guy that guy knows from church as un-American because the second guy criticized American racism to a black congregation. But he just detests political correctness. What's the word for that again?

No ... that was that other guy.
4.10.2008 8:39pm
shep (mail):
"No ... that was that other guy."

Oh, sorry. My mistake.
4.10.2008 9:15pm
Account:
Password:
Remember info?

Pay Tribute to the Queen

Tip Jar

Amazon Wish List

QOAE's Amazon Wishes


R.I.P. Steven Malcolm Anderson

/archives/flag_half_mast.gif

November 27, 2005

Minion of the Week



QOAE's Favorite article or person

Most Recent Proclamations

Who Is The
Queen of All Evil?

Email Policy

© 2004 Rosemary Esmay & QOAE.net
© 2004 Alice Kondraciuk, web design